Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Snowmane, Nov 9, 2004.
No, he was obviously serious.
please excuse me while I change my pad...
I'm not angry, I'm just... offended I guess. White people can crip walk, just like white people can be offended on behalf of black people. Thats why I see "nigger speak" as implying that its a way only black people speak, which is not true. Ebonics is just as ignorant as say... Southern Drawl... Its a dialect, not a language, and thinking someone is ignorant or annoying because of a dialect is your choice.
Sigurd your other examples... Give me a break, turn that around on Sicilians and most of it still applies. At least the "its affected" part. Its all as affected as "punk rock" or "heavy metal" or whatever... skinhead culture etc. Except, being a drug dealer is more economically viable, so if you're jealous, don't be! Sell pot! What I'm trying to say is the examples you use are not applicable to all black people, just as they are partially applicable to a small group of almost every race in America, because its not part of their African Heritage, its part of American Society. American Drug culture, music culture, gang culture whatever you want to call it, its just the most up to date, modern version of it all.
Regardless of all of this, its been stated in this thread that "nigger" is a sub group of ignorant black people. You say that the main matter of qualification is "ebonics," which is a blanket term for a way of speaking that originated in the urban areas of america, primarily amongst african americans, but not exclusive to them. In my opinion this is racist.
What if you had been adopted at a young age... (say 2) by a black family that primarily spoke "nigger speak" and you grew up with "nigger speak" as your first language. Lets say that they also clothed you and fed you, the way they clothed and fed themselves, would this make you a nigger? If you spoke with a mild ebonic slur as opposed to a slight southern twang, would that make you more of a nigger than the average white person?
If no, then you're obviously using race as one of the defining factors in who is or is not a nigger, which was the intention of the word in the first place. This is racist.
If the answer is Yes, then you are using the term "nigger" not to define race, but to define culture, specifically, a culture you don't think much of. In other words, you think it is bad to be a nigger, if nigger means you speak with an inner city dialect, and fit other behavioral patterns. So it is still a derogatory term you use to express your intolerance towards a group of people. Which is your choice, I suppose. It is unfortunate, however, that you choose to behave this way. Imagine if people discriminated (the way you discriminate niggers from black people) against people with southern accents, or people with "new york" accents. How would that make you feel? If the way you had been raised to speak, and the way everyone around you spoke was suddenly deemed ignorant. Confusion? Anger? How would it make you feel? What if black people who spoke with southern accents, and wore cowboy hats were not discriminated against the same way you were? This sort of blatant judgement of the culture of a significant portion of our society is extremely unfortunate in my opinion.
These are the echoes of racism still resonating through our society. When you can learn to tell the individuals from the non-existent granfaloons of pop-culture, and regional coloquialism then you'll see that nothing productive can come from terms like "nigger speak."
I hate it to when some stupid innbreed oslo--motherfucker refuses to understand a word of what iÃ‚Â´m saying because i speak trÃƒÂ¸ndersk(a norwegian dialect) and they come from oslo and does not have an dialect at all. Keep talking slang rosie, tell those losers that have fun with your dialect where they can stuff their fun. Kill the dialect bashers. But on the other hand, if you dislike "Nigger-talk" keep in mind that this is an dialect on its own, it is a little stupid bashing it while complaining that people bash yur dialect. Or no?
Ohh also all people from oslo are bastards, exept of maybe the king, and a few girls i know.
What do piss me of is when hear some stupid norwegian youth comming upp to his friend saying something like whazzzzzzuppp migahh, eeen ny hoes in tha hoooooood? Hello? Even oslo-language is better than that(even though it is not really an language just an disgusting abomination that likes to call itself an language)
My apologies Sigurd. Sleek does appear to be really, really thick as well as having an OCD over being politically correct.
Please, Sleek. Every black person I work with talk with thick ebonics. However, as soon as they have to wait on a customer, or talk to a manager, they change into grammatically and phonetically correct English. The use of ebonics is because of laziness. Hence the term, nigger, which, according to webster's means a "lazy person".
Thats wonderful, but they are not "all" black people. In my younger years I saw a black student brought to tears because our substitute english teacher demanded that they pronounce something "correctly" and he couldn't get his mouth around it. If you are raised to speak a certain way, then you will speak that certain way. Your association of the use of ebonics with laziness is misguided in my opinion. As soon as someone does it in a movie, or as soon as its part of some facet of pop culture, SOMEONE will immitate it. Its not laziness, its vanity, they're posing, they're "fronting." It doesn't mean they're lazy. You mmight say its silly to immitate something that you're not, and I'd agree with you, but I don't think its lazy. If I idolized john wayne and spent all my waking hours attempting to speak the way he does would that make me a nigger? Would it make me lazy? No. You associate ebonics with its origin and thats why you use the term nigger, not because of webster's definition, try to rationalize it all you want, its still racist.
So anyway, I pulled Webster's Dictionary off my shelf, and this is the full definition:
Nigger: n. 1: Disparaging and Offensive. a. a black person. b. a member of any dark skinned people. 2. Slang. (usually offensive) a second class citizen.
Thats all it says in the 1990 edition of webster's dictionary. It might be a slightly more up to date version of the definition, compared to your definition, which I assume you pulled out of a 1950's elementary school textbook.
poor sleek. your bleeding heart must hurt so bad due to our ignorance of political correctness... what has the world come to, that you must sit here and endure the slings and arrows coming from our racist, hillbilly mouths. isn't there some sort of liberal law somewhere to put us in our place? after all, society really can't allow inferior beings like ourselves out in public...
Sarcasm is not an argument.
<edit>nigger nigger nigger!
Thats fucking awesome!
Mmmm... and a midget on top of that. :heart:
What's that got to do with the subject, though?
What did rosie's last post ultimately have to do with the subject?
I'd like add that if you want to throw racism under the blanket of "political incorrectness" thats all well and good, but its still racism. I feel like I'm arguing with Rush Limbaugh or something.
Here's what I think you're all arguing about, but failing to recognise - accents. Retard said this:
Now I don't know if you're ever heard a genuine Aussie accent, but if you had, you'd know that pronunciation is only roughly associated with the spelling of the word. Case in point: Australia I pronounce "Oss-tray-ah", beer is "be-ah" (although that's the famous dipthong at work there) and hundreds of other words like it. The fact is, I'm not lazy, but my tongue is just not used to pronouncing certain letter or phonetics at particular points in words.
I think it's the same with these black ebonics, whatever the hell they are - it's an accent, and yes, they could speak differently, but their tongue is not capable or used to doing it naturally, and like me, they have to concentrate to do so.
No, it's not the same. Any black man I know who speaks ebonics can also speak perfect English as per Retard's example. The ebonics is a cultural slang, just like all the terms used by MMORPG gamers (mob, add, aggro, etc), except it's used in normal life, and far to excess. It's an affected, fake manner of speech, and it isn't the accent. A black accent is the same as your Aussie accent example. They would pronounce "what for" as "whut fo," or "my niggers" as "mah niggaz." These are all an accent, not bad English. So a black man would have trouble saying "my nigg-erz" the way white folk do, just like your pronunciation of "fire up the barbie, mates" as "foya up the bahbie, mites", and my pronunciation of "I need a quarter for a cup of coffee for my dog" as "I need a quawtah fuh-a cuppa cawfee fuh my dawg."
The fact that many black people also use bad English (where you at? the trash needs took out (also midwestern white)) is troubling, but it's usually not too bad, and most of these are from poor midwestern or southern communities and aren't well educated. Ebonics is something else entirely. It's the use of a whole different vocabulary, willfully rather than inherited, slang taken to the extreme so it becomes a different, and fabricated dialect. Black kids who can afford to buy Davoucci jeans, Fubu shirts and all manner of "bling" can also speak English correctly. But they choose not to.
Actually if someone was going to say "my nigg-er" these days they would probablly "my nizzle," which really has nothing to do with ebonics, and everything to do with snoop dog. This is the difference I think some people fail to recognize; the seperation of hip hop trends, and black people. The majority of hip hop perpetuation is perpetrated not only by black people, but by a variety of social stereotypes. Whites included. I recognize that there is a difference between ebonics and... a "black accent" but they aren't unrelated. I also suppose that ebonics originated from people's overuse of slang in everyday conversation, but there are still children being raised to speak this way. I'm not arguing that ebonics is valid as a seperate language, or anything like that. My only argument is that "nigger speak" is a blatantly racist term, and that merely speaking ebonics does not automatically qualify someone as ignorant or lazy. White kids who buy Davoucci jeans, and Fubu shirts could also speak correctly if they tried, but white trash families with 4 brand new amazing looking cars, but live in a trailer that looks like shit could also speak proper english if they tried. Why should they? For your benefit? Or are you too ignorant and lazy to listen through the coloquialism?
As a side note I'd like to add that people didn't start immitating "black accents" until the advent of rap, which was of course first introduced by african americans. It wasn't as if black people woke up one day and all started to immitate their favorite rapper either. It also wasn't as if they all decided to start speaking a certain way in order throw whitey through a loop. I believe if there was some serious research done, the history of the accent aspect of it all could be traced back to slavery, and it would ultimately be determined that the modern day "black accent" is an amalgamation of whatever african accents the slaves brought over, and whatever southern accents they picked up laboring in america, I believe that this combined with a dash of historical illiteracy and lack of education (because it was illegal for them to read, write etc) may have produced what we now write off as a "black accent." Oh yes, lets not forget "jive," the ebonics of the Dirty Harry era. Slang in all forms has a lot of history behind it and I think it would be foolish to simply write it all off as lazy and ignorant before analyzing its origins. The timeline of language, or slang, is often directly related to the timeline of a people's history. Whether or not it is associated with some pop trend like hip hop is more of a manifestaion of societal taste, than anything else. Country music is built around southern accents, so whats wrong with rap? I don't like it, but I don't blame others for enjoying it. As a matter of fact I think I hate country music slightly more than I hate rap.
Nah man, I seriously doubt it. Not without getting laughed at, you honkie boy.
Its all relative, they certainly wouldn't say "my neegaz." I actually heard some lame 30 something ass hole call his friend over to his table (where I work... www.jamminjava.com ) by shouting "hey! nizzle!" and his friends laughed because he was so fucking clever and topical and I wish things like that didn't make me want to... uhhh... act violently... <cough>
Okay, to be honest: I hate ebonics and "gobble-speak" just because it sounds fucking stupid to me. I don't mind slang at all, but certain forms piss me off. But I love Italian from New Jersey (Staten Island, Brooklyn, Long Island, etc) slang that involves the use of random (often clipped) Italian terms and phrases, and sentences like "Gavone come by my house tommorow. Then we can go down the shore." Why is it "by?" Is the gavone going to walk by Vinnie's house without entering? How the hell do you go down the shore? You will never hear a New Jerseyite (at least from the four northern counties) say "beach."
Sigurd, your attempts at written versions of the Aussie accent was absolutely horrendous. Worse even than non-Australians attempts at reproducing it verbally. I swear, it must be the hardest accent on Earth to reproduce convincingly. Anyone can do a passable American one (I have from time to time), accents from the British Isles (English, Scottish and Irish) are easily done, and eastern European is everyone's favourite, but I have yet to run into (or even hear of) someone who can do an Aussie accent who is either not an Aussie or who has not spend a significant amount of time here.
come now jar. everyone can do an aussie accent or at least alot of new zealanders can but then we do have to put up with it on a daily bases.
Jus loike Stave Errwen, mites.
Now that was a good one, if I do say so muhself.
Well the thing that sticks out to me, is you spell "mate" as "mite", when I reckon it'd be more similar to "mayt". We don't call people "mites"
You probably can't reproduce an Australian accent without knowing the whole phonetic alphabet either. We don't say "loike" either. Mostly we change vowels and make longer or make hard consonants longer e.g. fuCK off or piSS off, we've got this funky little kinda half 'e' sound on the end.
I reckon some asian language (including Russia and China) would be harder. But if you're talking english languages then I'd say South African accents are the hardest.
Separate names with a comma.