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The United States make than major dipl blumber by say it wouldnot except Iraq offer to allow UN WEAPON INSTER back than as it WILLNOT lead to than change OF REGREIN in Iraq. IT SEEN I WAS CORRECT TO QUESTION THE NORTICE OF THE CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST CONTROL US GOVERNMENT.

 

Hey people! I've been following this thread around for quite sometime. It's facisating. I love hearing other people's views, but Charles, I'm having a bit of trouble following yours. Could you please try to be a bit clearer?

 

Basely the Bush whitehouse make than diplomanty blunber by saying it would
not acepted than return of UN WEAPON INSTERPOR to Iraq which show I was
right to question our dumb cowboy Presidental who have no resecety for innational law. There is no UN resoulution calling for the removeing of the current government of Iraq by America or by the Iraq people.

 

Exactly! Another reason: They have about 3 billion more bullet catchers than we do.

The reason they don't: We have about 3 billion more bullets than they have bullet catchers.

 

It's easy to describe the USA as if they are the same as Iraq, but is it really accurate?

The USA are a democracy, and have representatives from many walks of life and religions in their government. Iraq is a military dictatorship, who have brutally supressed variant sects of the religion they share, let alone letting another religion through the doors.

The USA have been accused of going in to various countries for selfish reasons, but their reasons were at least ambiguous, because a large propoortion of their goverment would openly oppose war for profit. There has been nothing ambiguous about Iraq''s attacks on Kuwait or its brutal suppression of the Shiites and Kurds.

China, in my opinion, have a human rights record that seems worse than just about anyone, with the exception of Iraq, Serbia and some para-military organisations.

Why did the USA not walk into Iraq without asking questions? One of the reasons must surely be fear of the consequences turning out to be a huge, multi-nation war. It should therefore be obvious why the USA (and the UN) are walking on eggshells when dealing with China.

It has become popular to defame the actions of the USA in both justified and unjustified manners. It is a bit scary to see that some people are prepared to overlook the acts of people like Saddam in an attempt to jump on this popular band-wagon.

 

Find some liberal media.......Right. That's why 95% of the media vote democratic. Come on three dogs, do you really think that the American news media are unbiased? Really. The media is a freakin' joke. Dan Rather will look you in the eyes and tell you he's unbiased....He's fulla crap, too.

Oh, I get it. So if someone takes you to court, that means you're guilty, right? Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the assumption that the American judicial system operated under the "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Now let me ask you a question regarding this matter. What did the court find? Nothing. But, SHHHHH. Lets not publicize the fact that he wasn't guilty of a thing. That won't help the ol' liberal cause.

Yeah. That's exactly what the liberals say too. "No tax cuts. No tax cuts. They cause economical disasters. Don't give the American working people their hard earned money back. Matter of fact, let's tax the fuckers more."

 

First to the Sheriff Hell yeah I feel bad about snapping at you every time I come to a thread dealing with this subject. It's one of the reasons that I feel so tired of talking about it I respect your opinion in many other things but on this subject we can not seem to see I2I. That is cool with me but I do think that you also could do with a bit of fact checking b4 u type Other then that I am not going to get into it with you cause I honestly don't believe that we are that far apart I am just a BIT more extreme

Another good question Bro, If Iraq is expelled from the UN then it will no longer be under UN protection meaning that if the US even "thinks" that Iraq is doing bad we don't need to ask anyone we can just bomb They would have no protection because they are not a member state. (This is why Tawain wants into the UN so bad cause without the UN the US is just about Tawains only allie and if the US backs out China could invade with little are no trouble at all.)

Also a few quotes to back up my points on Iraq and hopefully make my meaning a bit clearer to my detractors:

this goes back 11 years as I have stated

Just because inspectors were expelled in 98 does not mean one should count time starting in 98

Again my point we have been trying to get Saddam to disarm for 11 years and they have done everything in their power to avoid this including starving their own people and lieing about facts. What SPYING???? if they would simply keep their word and disarm then they would not have to be conserned with SPYING would they? :roll:

 

I must say, these last days' news has been pulling me towards USA's side, and i'm starting to move away from opposing an attack. I heard that the inspectors were all allowed back into the country. Pretty convinient eh? An attack is imminent, so they take a hit and allow the inspectors back in. And i heard one of the Iraq politicians (can't remember what he was exactly), giving some bull-shittish speech about it, didn't sound very convincing. I await the findings of the inspectors, or reports of whether or not they've been denied access to certain places again. This sounds like a deja vú to me. I still believe USA should hold their horses in place and try working out a peaceful solution before going in all guns blazing, with the risk of triggering serious retaliation attacks.


Something got me thinking when talking about China violating human rights as well, what about Afghanistan before 9/11? They treated men like crap, women like shit, no radio or TV, telecommunication was banned, and people struggled to survive. And yet, it took a direct attack on US soil for them to actually start taking action. It's not like they didn't know about Osama bin Laden and his involvement with the Taleban, but they did nothing despite the obvious violations. And it wasn't weapons of mass destruction or chemical weapons that was used. It was American air planes, captured by appaerantly normal people who lived regular lives up until that date. It's nice that America wants to right the wrongs that are happening in the middle-east, but being selective and doing it for sheer profit or self-gain isn't very commendable, (if that's indeed what they're doing).

 

I'm glad Iraq caved, even if they're just playing political games, because I was worried for quite a while that Saddam was actively trying to provoke people to war.

People do forget how bad the Taliban was. I saw this documentary about a tiny village with two ancient 80 foot statues of Budda, carved out of a cliff face and coloured. The Taliban were violently opposed to non-Islamic religions, so fired rockets at it. When the statues did not succumb to rocket fire, the Talibab took all the able bodied men from the town and forced them at gunpoint to rig the statues with explosives, then explode them. I can't find the orginal BBC documentary, but here's A CNN article about it

This is what makes me think the Taliban weren't just "freedom fighters" or some other kind of force trying to fight oppression from the USA. They were an oppressive, inhumane regime in their own right. Mind you, I don't assume that the war just fought over there necessarily improved things.

Hel Khat, point taken about the 11 years. I suppose Saddam never really did fully cooperate.

I hope you won't mind me saying that I find it very disturbing that you would be so pleased at being able to drop bombs indecriminately on people, and that you think the only thing holding that back currently is Iraq's UN protection. That seems very flippant to me and it fails to consider the human lives that would be lost. I hope you haven't progressed to the point where Iraqis are no longer human to you, but just "the enemy" or targets.

 

I don't really understand what point is trying to be made here Rat Keeng. If I interpret your post wrongly, please tell me. It seems what you are saying is that we have known about Osama bin Laden for some time now, but we haven't done anything about him or his terroristic regime. You then say that we (Americans) attempt to do something about it when, and ONLY when, we are attacked on our soil. Right so far?

Ok, now for my point. A lot of people are arguing that the U.S. will not be justified by a pre-emptive strike against Iraq and Saddamn. A lot of people think Bush is a cowboy.....

So....What you are saying is that we waited around to attack Osama ONLY when he attacked US. Well, now, when the Bush admin. is trying to do something about Iraq, they get labeled and criticised. So what to do? Strike now and be forever frowned upon? Or wait until Saddam strikes us first, THEN we strike him back, THEN everybody starts saying, "Oh, it was only when Iraq fired upon America that they decide to do something about it, even though Saddam has been amassing nuke capabilities, and torturing, murdering, and oppressing the people of Iraq for YEARS."

Do you see what I'm saying? Does it make just a little bit of sense? Or have I fucked it all up? It seems that now it's "damned if we do, damned if we don't."

 

That seems to be the best all around interpretation yet, retard.

 

Why is it that everyone believes that Saddam would use his weapons of mass destruction on the US? Why not use them to win some allies? Why not use them on say....Israel? Israel already made the statement during the Gulf War that if Iraq used chemical or nuclear weapons that it would nuke them. If Iraq were to nuke Israel or use chemical weapons there they would earn the support of every militant Islamic faction out there.

Just a question.

 

I did not say ANY of that I simply said that if Iraq were expelled from the UN the country would be easier to deal with as a whole because it would be a "rouge state" . I know it must be fun for you to label me all kinds of things but I am for the security of my country first and foremost and I will NEVER be sorry about that. I have watched Iraqi leaders play shell games for years and it's old.
Acting like Iraq has not been in violation for years will not make it true. Instead of making me out to be the monster who wants all Iraqis dead maybe you should ask Saddam why he seems so willing to place the lives of his people in danger.

I will say it yet again for you to totally disregard and ignore. I do not want to see people die in ANY country for ANY reason but I want the safety and security of my people first and foremost.

As far as the title of "Spin Doctor" goes you win cause you can twist words with the best of them (maybe we need to get you a job in politics cause you have certainly missed your calling)

Just because I don't buy the "poor Iraqi victims" line does not mean I want all Iraqi's dead anymore then it would be fair to say that I don't want to see a Palestinian State.

I am saying that I am not going to pretend that we (the US, mainly) have not been TRYING to resolve this matter peacefully for YEARS. I am not going to pretend for one second that I think Iraq has not been developing weapons or helping terrorism. I will not put blinders on to save the lives of Iraqi citizens at the possible expense of my own people.

I do not want to see innocent people die but the fact of the matter is that in war they do die, does this fact make me happy? NO. But it still does not change the fact.

Am I glad that Iraq has FINALLY blinked and agreed to let inspectors in? HELL YEAH cause I believe that if he is honest about this it will SAVE LIVES (both Iraqi and American).

Do I think my country should now still be pushing for war? NO I DO NOT. I think that we need to wait and see how these inspections turn out.

If this is a ploy or another game and they get expelled again do I think we should wait another 3 years for them to get back in? NO. If this is for real then please let there be peace but if this is a lie then please let this be the last one cause I for one am sick of it and I am not willing to see any more innocent Americans die.

 

I hate to say if even Iraq was expelled from the UN we cannot attack without
UN approval read the UN chatar if still apply it you arenot than member.
I hear that the INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT is opening than file on you so they can be ready to put you on trail when you do something which
is than war crime.

 

I do agree with you very much on this.

The unfortunate thing about living in a former democracy (the leaders of the US are not democratic I feel they are mostly a bunch of money grubbing capitalist) is that with our economy the way it is (which the events of 9/11 did not help but made much worst). Many politicians and regular Joe Americans feel that we need a war to get US out of the really bad shape we are in.

What is the logic behind this?

We have the highest unemployment levels in decades (another reason Bush is pushing the war cause his domestic policies are for shit and he needs to divert attention from all the heartache at home.) And personally I think we are in hip deep in a resestion (spell check) and by November we will be in a full blown depression.

How did we get out of our last depression?

WWII. We sent all the young folks who could not find jobs too war (to die), we also had to build stuff for war so older men and young woman found it easy to get good paying jobs while the war was on thus an economic boom and an end to the depression.

Many Hawks hold this same logic close to heart as a reason to start a war with Iraq (plus the fact that they are bloody mad as hell for what they think Iraq is secretly responsible for doing to our country aka 9/11)

Personally even though I am still unemployed (yes a 9/11 lay-off victim), I do not agree with this line of thought. My reasons for wanting to get Iraq had nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with safety.
I do not think that people should die in order for me to get rich that to me is the same as blood money and I can not support that.

Unfortunately when the person you are talking about is a known liar and mass murderer like Saddam is it makes it easy to turn me from a Dove into a Hawk (especially after 11 years of watching him in action)

I truly hope that Bush will now seek to work with the UN and push for tough no nonsense inspections that will help to disarm and clear Iraq and stop the madness. But to be honest I do not believe that he will, I can see now that politically he may feel that he has to much to gain with a war (cause he has just about screwed up everything else) especially if he ends it quickly with small loss of American lives (roomer has it that he thinks it would be over in about 2 weeks, I don't think so more like 2 months).

But this is what I mean by the insanity of terrorism, Terrorist really need to stop thinking of Americans as weak willed saps and start thinking of US as bloodthirsty maniacs, looking for a reason to fuck them up. Cause at this point that is what most of US are.
If 9/11 had not happened Bush could not have gotten away with this and it's also likely Iraq wouldn't even have inspectors. But that one act made it clear that we have to be just as willing to kill as they are, cause if we are not they WILL kill US. This at a time when we were already hurting economicly, it was all the reason we needed.

They MUST STOP thinking like Osama and start thinking like Ghandi or Dr. King cause all killing innocent people is going to do is get a lot more of them dead a lot quicker. Terrorism in this new day and age is not only crazy it's stupid.....

2 more suicide bombings in Israel and I am willing to bet that Bush will not even address the matter (unless to condem it). Why? Because he does not care, no one in power does. As far as Bush cares they can all die cause they are nothing more then a race of murderers anyway and until they can PROVE otherwise he will let Israel do whatever she feels is needed to protect herself against uncontrolable suicidal savages.

Please understand I am not saying that this is correct or just (nor am I saying that this is my point of view) I am simply saying that this is the way life is. Until they stop living for death and start working non-violently for peace their land and their people are doomed.

And in a way since we are all linked, then we are all doomed to suffer with them in one way or another......

 

War donot end ecominic down turn but increase in government spending which alot of people are afraid to do as it will unbalance the buget. First off there was and ever be than balance buget of any large orgination. Accounting
and bookkeeping are basely keeping record of income and spending after it
happen in the past. While government and big orgination are all changeing (dymaric in nature) so they donot know what will happen next week. The last
week of the fiscal year can see than increase in income or than increase in cost which mean you cannot balance than government budget to the last penny. Let say Calf get hit by than super earthquate in the last week of the feberal buget , the government just can't say sorry we cannot help you calf as it will unbalance our buget try next ficsal year.

Plus this one will be wordth than the last one in the 1930's the dollar was back by 25% silver today the dollar have nothing backing (no gold,no silver)
so it is fliat money it is worth something because the government say it worth
something.

 

Interesting points, personally I think he is going to push this war anyway and it's going to end up losing him his second term because I don't think it's going to improve the economy much (It didn't for Desert Storm and that's why his Father lost.) and when election time comes everyone is going to vote by judging what they have in their wallets (just like he should expect good little capitalist's to do) and in two years one way or another the Iraq matter should be resolved and history.

 

I than more worry about Bush doing something supid like going against Iraq
without UN approval. They have than plan called the inside out plan involueing 25000 special operation guy to kill Iraq leader than destorying his elite units. Sound fine on paper but what sound good on paper doesnot hold up in the real world. What say we sent the 25000 special opp guy in an the mission fail than we lose 25000 man. First those guy need close airsupport which can come only from aircraft carries off the coast of Iraq. Iran test fire than 500 miles missile with pinpoint accurate with Global satil position location
system on board plus than backup guidance system to use when close to target area like radar. Iran might hate Iraq but Iran might defense Iraq this time to stop America from occupting Iraq which America can use as than base against Iran.
If we lose 25000 man plus than fleet or two of ships the Military will sent more man and ships into the area to try to win with than good change of widely the war into than general remapmakeing mission which will fail as other nation will percep the war as than Holy War against Islam. We mightnot mean if as such than war the other Islamic nation in the area mightnot see that way.An they will support Iraq they might not like the leader of Iraq but the mood of these people in the street can force then to
support Iraq.

 

I am not sure that Iran would support Iraq if it came to war, but either way this year or 10 years from now I hate to say it but war maybe unavoidable as long as there are hard line muslims and hard line capitalist in the world. As for your quote about Islam becoming the number one religon I SERIOUSLY doubt that cause both Islam and Christianity have suffered major set back at the start of this century.

These events may actually give Buddism or Hinduism the boost they need as peace loving people begin to avoid bloody religons that have elements of hate in them. Personally I'll stick to the Craft :wink: