usausausausausausaor is it land ofthemightyweshouldntannoy

No he will not. He will sit on his ass in irak becasue he knows that the US will carve him into pieces if he tries anything. So he will not attack any other country directly, he will probably support terrorists who will do so but he will not attack directly.

(clears throat) vietnam, korea, the areas known as new mexico and so on.
If you have read your history lesson you will find out that the us has whenever they found it nesecary taken control of states in the caribian ocean all the way upp to the 1930s.

 

Soon after 9-11 I talked to two Brits and what I heard was:

"Now US says that supporting terrorism is bad but then what about their policy on IRA?"

Personally I wasn't even aware of it but then they're obviously more up to date with IRA info.

 

a lie he has done it b4 and HE WILL do it the SECOND he thinks it is to his advantage to do so.

This reason all by itself all a lone is MORE then enough of a reason to blow his butt out of the water.

This MAYBE true actually even up to the 1980's if you were to count Panama (which I don't cause we helped build that little country), but it still does not put US in the same boat as Nazi Germany.

In the cases of Vietnam, Korea we were ASKED to stop something that Russia or China had put into motion it's not like they were sitting around knitting and then we just started bombing them (duh).

As for what is now New Mexico, it is NOW New Mexico (nuff said) if you want to give it back to Mexico I won't argue it's pretty much worthless but it's ours and I respect that much.


Now let's look at Iraq:

Iran sitting around knitting sweaters, selling oil for dirt cheap and cursing America Iraq attacks it!

Kuwait (or however it's spelt don't really care): Sitting around knitting sweaters, selling oil, blocking Iraq's view of the ocean and praising Allah. Iraq attacks it no other reason other then it was in the way.

United States (5 years from now): Sitting around knitting sweaters because it did not have the backbone to strike when it SHOULD have is in total chaos because some terrorist fuck unloaded a nuc in the middle of our state Capital. We now have NO leadership because even the supreme court was located in Washington. MILLIONS are dead or dieing and we have no one to blame (except ourselves) because no country will accept credit for this first strike (Saddam the punk is seen dancing for joy with his buddies)

3 months later our west coast is hit while we are still TRYING to recover from the last attack. 2 years later the US is a 3 rate nothing country what hasn't been blown to bits has been raided by Mexico or purchased by the Arab...

So much for the peace loving capitalist who didn't have the guts to strike when they should have now the world is in chaos because without the US the UN is a Joke.

Welcome to the second Dark age of Mankind:

China and Russia share the spoils while England, France, Germany and Spain TRY to keep their borders in tact. Turkey, Jordan, Kuwait and Iran don't exist they are now part of Iraq.

Israel has no allies left that can help so it's all but gone. India the only power that MIGHT have kept things stable can't cause it's in the middle of a nuc war with Pakistan. Egypt and the rest of the Arab countries are quick to sign peace agreements with Iraq, agreements which are not worth the paper they are signed on but who cares at least they get to LIVE for another year or two while Iraq expands into Europe....

And their is no Internet left for me (IF I am still alive) to flip a finger at those who wanted to US to leave poor harmless little Iraq alone in the first place! :x

 

As far as I know the US has NO policy written anywhere or spoken by ANY leader supporting IRA related terrorism. And as far as I am concerned if ANY American is caught supporting IRA terrorist related activity they need to be sent to Cuba with the rest of the lot sitting there waisting their lives away in praise of ignorance and hate.

 

Quotes Ahoy!

Condescending, aren't you? Darkwalker made what I thought was a valid point. Rather than argue the point, you accuse him of being an idiot and talking down to him as though you were his teacher.

As far as I'm concerned, The Greenhouse Effect is not a priori truth. It's not gospel. It's something that's still debated among scientist. And it's not something someone should be called an idiot for not believing in wholeheartedly.

EDIT - Let me make it clear that what I'm talking about here is humanity/industrialization being the major contributing factor of the Greenhouse Effect, not the Greenhouse Effect itself.

When would it be in his advantage to do so? In Desert Storm, Hussein had the opportunity to use the Sarin nerve gas (that we provided him with) on US soldiers, yet he didn't. I think it's because he knew that would be the end of him. If he has weapons of mass destruction and is just itching to use them, why hasn't Israel acted yet? They're surely a target for Iraqi aggression, aren't they? Israel has shown before that they are more than willing to pre-emptively strike if they feel threatened, yet they have done nothing.

Hussein certainly can't project what power he does have to the mainland United States, so that can't be the rationale.

I'd tend to agree with you here, but I'd like some proof of his involvement in terrorist attacks before we declare war on his country. If there's solid proof there (and there might be a connection found in the investigation into the first WTC bombing, not sure though), then yes, go for it.

My only question is where is this proof? Bush and the rest of them would squash any doubt in the public mind that we should attack Iraq (an increasingly unpopular opinion) if they would disclose the information that they supposedly have. They would have no problem with public support if they would do this, so why haven't they?

Sheriff Fatman could tell you more about this. Maybe he'll drop in and enlighten us, since he knows more about the subject than alot of us probably do.

What I think the whole IRA/USA thing about is our not extraditing known IRA terrorists back to Great Britain to stand trial or something like that. If this is true, wouldn't that make us an Alliance of Evil? Why we wouldn't extradite them, I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me if the US did do something like this, though, and it's not because I'm some pinko flag-hating anti-patriot. I just don't pretend that my country (or any country) is some paragon of virtue. All countries do hypocritical shit sometime in their history.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say for now. Well, one last thing... I heard another possible explanation for the Bush administrations eagerness for war with Iraq, and it has to do with Saudi oil and the tension between the the Al Saud ruling family and the populace of Saudi Arabia.

Apparently, some people are thinking that Bush wants control of Iraqi oil now because of Saudi Arabia is so unstable and he wants to hedge against the possibility of losing thier cut of our oil supply. Why Iraq? Cause it's a convenient target, and one that he feels that he can "sell" the idea of war with them to the public. Is this the truth? I don't know. It's something to think about, though. We'll see how it all plays out.

 

Thanks for defending my point of view Milo, but Etalis is not to blame. That was just another burning ball of pitch in our private little flame war. BTW just to clarify, he's pretending not to play along, yet he bites at whatever piece of bait I throw out there. I love this site.

 

Re: Quotes Ahoy!

It was not to his advantage to attack Iran but he did
It was not to his advantage to attack Kuwait but he did
It will not be to his advantage to attack the US but he will

Why because he is not a rational human being he is a war monger, who will not rest until either (A) he controls his region totally or (B) he is removed from power.

Also he had to have used SOMETHING on our men during Desert Storm cause a hell of alot of our folks came back sick as hell from something.

Trust me this is US international politics at it's finest! Right now Bush is walking softly and getting everyone upset and demanding something that HE already KNOWS that he has. Proof is going to be His Big stick and mark my words within the next 3 weeks he is going to come out with some proof that's going to knock your socks off (and make them whiter too). As for me I have all the proof I need but the other 80% of you will soon have even more reason (as if the reasons I have already given were not enough..) to want his butt out.

Sorry can't buy it buddy, you see we OWN Kuwait (actually the Bush family is heavily invested in Kuwait oil which is why the Iraq invasion pissed US off so much in the first place) and in 5 years we won't need as much oil as we do now cause of Hydro cars and such.

 

Re: Quotes Ahoy!

I'll have to read up on Hussein before I say he had no reason to attack Iran or Kuwait. I don't know as much about the history there as I should. I still believe that he must have had some rationale behind Iran and Kuwait, as wrong as they might have been. I'm saying in his mind he had reason to. But whatever. I just have a problem saying "He's obviously insane. He must be dealt with. Now." It just seems short-sighted to me right now. Maybe my opinion will change once I've learned a little more about the subject.

Point taken, but the point that I was making is that he didn't use the worst at his disposal. Whatever it was that was used to cause Gulf War Syndrome, it definitly was not Sarin. Something we know he has/had because we gave it to him when he was an ally.

I hope you're right, since it seems like we're committed to this. I have to question the logic of holding on to this information, but, oh well. Even making a statement that we do, in fact, have proof would go a long ways towards currying support. No disclosure needed. Again, if this is true, why he wouldn't do at least this is beyond me. I can't see an angle there; Can't see what he gains politically by playing it this way.

Thanks for the info. What I gave was some talk radio conspiracy theory anyway.

 

Fair enough this is what I know and I hope this helps clear up matters a little (but it may not cause what I know is kinda sketchy but here goes).

Iraq / Iran used to be a country know as Persia* (spell check please) Remember Ali ba ba and the 40 thieves or the tale of Aladdin? they came from Persian folk lore. Sometime during the cold war (or maybe during ww2) the country was divided (by either England (likely) or America (unsure) or maybe Russia (doubtful)) into Iraq and Iran.

In the 70's I don't think many peps in America even knew Iraq existed But BOY did we know about Iran. After the Iran crisis (we backed the wrong leader and they kidnapped our peps and held them hostage for over a year) We broke off ties to Iran and started getting friendly with Iraq (well we had to get oil from somewhere and it wasn't going to be Iran anymore) and several other Arab countries. Saddam the leader of Iraq at the time felt that his new found friendship with a "world power" gave him the right to many things and when Iran stated dropping oil prices it was all the reason he needed to attack. (Now every one KNEW it was because of oil but Saddam CLAIMED that he wanted to reunite Persia and therefore Iran Belonged to Iraq by right!)

Well Iraq did not expect poor little ole Iran now all alone in the world without US support to put up such a fight (One HELL of a fight as a matter of fact.) and within WEEKS Iraq was running home with it's tail between it's legs. During this time the US didn't officially back either side (although we were supplying Iraq with arms). But we were cultivating our relationships with the Suadias* (spell) and Kuwait among others in the region. After suffering an embaressing* defeat at the hands of Iran, Iraq found itself in even worst economic condition then B4! This fact compounded by the fact that Iraq is a land locked country with no ports with which to export it's oil from.

Meanwhile Kuwait had been pissing Iraq off by selling it's oil cheaply..... Hmmmm KUWAIT!!! A next door neighbor with a DIRECT outlet to the sea!!!! Plus they are pissing us of by selling oil cheap anyway! So what does Saddam do? INVADE claiming that Kuwait use to be part of PERSIA and so belongs to Iraq by right! (I have found no information to support this but I guess is could have once been true Persia was a very large country). This is where Saddam screwed up because he ASSUMED stuff, he ASSUMED that since his newfound US friends had supplied him with weapons and had done nothing over the Iran war that we would do nothing this time either and if WE did nothing no one else would DARE stop him. What he did not know was that Kuwait was also VERY friendly with the US so friendly in fact that it's current Presidents FATHER had major financial holdings in Kuwait and a MAJOR interest in keeping Kuwait safe and its oil prices low.

Thus Desert Storm... During which Saddam proves himself to be both unyielding and ruthless; He torches ALL of Kuwait's oil reserves b4 leaving and hits our ground troops with a bio weapon that we STILL have not identified. On top of this he massicars* the Kurdish rebels for having the nerve to REBEL against 20 years of failed leadership and failed wars (thus the creation of the "no fly zone" a MAJOR 11 year US/English cost that NO ONE else in the UN will help pay for! Even though it both insures Kuwaits safety and protects Thousands of Kurds from certain death with no benefit to the US or England)

To end the no fly zone and get normal economic relations restored ALL Iraq has to do is Disarm it's weapons of mass destruction and provide the UN (NOT the US) with PROOF of this by letting them inspect! But FOR 11 YEARS IRAQ HAS SAID SCREW YOU ALL WE WILL DO WHAT WE WANT! 11 YEARS my country AND England have had to pay to keep this manic in check. 11 years that Iraq has used what little economic might it has left to DEVELOP EVEN MORE Weapons while starving its own people!

Well I hope this helps I tried to stay as close to world history as i could without putting my personal views in (except for the last part :razz: )

 

Thanks for that, Hel Khat. I'll load up my Encylopedia Britannica discs and see what I can learn about the region from there. I'll check back later once I've read up; Maybe I'll have something to add.

 

dark

Your future dark age there Hel Khat seems almost 100% unlikley. Turkey has a force that would destroy the likes of Iraq and its also part of the EU, so the rest Europe would join in.

Iraq attack Iran shortly after Saddam got the power after returning from exile. He saw a weak defencsive line in iran and wanted the land for himself, of course we all know it ended in a draw. A draw, how silly.

Kuwait was Iraq believing that they had rights to the land there but didnt think the world would be pissed off. The day before desert storm the iraqis pulled out.

Iraq hasnt attacted the US, unless its a secrete in the US.

Hows this. for attacks to stop communism, i can see why the Russians hated the USA.
USA attacks North Korea so the south stays democratic.
USA attacks Viatnam to make sure half stay democratic.

2 Vs. 2 so whos the evil ones then. Im not saying that the USA is evil but the comparison are there

 

Re: dark

Turkey is not as powerful as you may think they have not had a real fight in like decades and their econmy is heading for the crapper nowdays and should it fall it is the gateway into Europe. Also the EU is an economic union NOT a military one their charter says this an attack on one in no way compels the other to come running to help.

I agree Iran should have totally kicked butt. BUT they were not ready for such a cowardly attack from an ALLIE no less.

we don't know that for certain but we do know that Iraq has time and again attacked American interests and allies alike.

Russia was using force to enforce communism on Korea and Viatnam (China was also involved in this) and we put a stop to it after being asked.... Sorry there is no comparison

Oh and BTW:

"4418 days passed and our POW's are still in iraqi prisons"

I got this quote directly from a Kuwait Television website:

http://www.kuna.net.kw/

Just encase anyone out there thinks that all Arab countries are against our invading Iraq. Let it be known that there are SEVERAL Arab countries that support our attaking Iraq. Kuwait is one and there is another that has even allowed US to build an Air Base on their lands for the very purpose of attacking Iraq Should we not be able to use Saudi Air Bases (that we built also).

 

force factor 8

Turkey has friends and is part of NATO. thats what i meant to say (well done Hel it shows you're paying attention. Hee).
Just like the world helped USA against Afgan, and the world also helped Kuwait, the world wouldnt sit by and watch Turkey get shat on by a little upstart like Saddam.

As for that "Iraq attacked the USA" it's as i thought still the speculation that England and USA won't tell the rest of us, future and present allies.

Commis
Of course the Russians used force to get there way accross. The best way to convince a group of poeple is to give them no other option. It's like trying to stay No 1.

As for the POWs. You're meaning Kuwait pows. Its a sad part of war but the kuwait guys were taken for human shield reasons. theres meant to be hundreds of them.
Thats a good link to the Kuwait TV there Hel. Thanks

Do you realise that one of the biggest reasons bin ladin hates the USA is because of those bases in Saudi. He made all kinds of threats to the king and of course was kicked out of the country. Bins mission is to get the invaders off holy land, so while the USA is there, there cant be any kind of peace. Course Bins also bitter that the Saudis choose the USA and not El quida (how ever "the base" is meant to be spealt) to fortify the area against Iraq after Desert storm.

So alot of the worlds problems stem from 1990. What future problems will come come after another attack on Iraq? Only time will tell.

Stay tuned to the same bat channel. At the same bat time.

 

And you see nothing wrong in the fact that he used US Army for his private interests? Perhaps junior has some personnal affair too. I wonder if Bush senior would have rushed so soon into Kuwait were it only a friend of US excluding his personnal business..

 

First off than little history lessions.

First Iraq and Iran where devide into two seperate nation in the middle age
around 7th of 8th cenutry. The Othmec Empire did very bielf did conquest Iran was unable to hold onto Iran.

Second by the treatry sign in Genva Swissland that ended the French - Incrochina war Vietman was tempurate divide into two part for 10 year than
UN electron where to take place to deminate who the leader or than reunited
Vietman was to be. Our Secretary of State durning the Korean and French-Incrochina war was than RABID anti-com. who didnot like every much DEGaul ending the war by signing than Treatry with Ho Lee Min.
DeGaul has only two good elite military unit left after WW2. One was in French to protect French from than Com. threat to Europe. Than the second was sent to French InterChina to put down the freedom upraiseing there. It
was total destory in than framous battle in which it trie to hold onto than important airfield. The VC was romoning all other IC anyway before DeGaul sent that Elite military unit there. When that framous battle was over Degaul recognite realism that there was no war that French was able to hold unto IC without senting the second and last Elite military unit he has there, where it has than good change of being destory. Our Secetary of State call DeGaul than degenerate and a cworard for signing that treatry with Ho Lee Min. Then the USA encourage the military coup against the only legal President of South Vietman so we could have than bases to launch attack against North Vietman. The inframous Gulf of Torkin event was phony in that Destory of our was bomdarding Noth Vietman with it Naval Guns without procration. Which automatic gave the North Vietman the legal right under InterNational law the right to attack our Destory even in International water. The North Vietman didnot attack first we did and our
Government lie about than even commitee perjury about it. That why the
other member of that Alliance we have down where free to not support us as we comitee than hostile action on our own.

 

Third we told the new illegality president to cancle election plan to hold the UN election in the South as Ho Lee Min would have won in than landslide in the South. Not all VC where com that fought against us in their war of Independence from foreign devil (USA).

Fourth I gave than friend of mine than Book that detail our secret war against
the com in Northern Russia from 1917 to around 1923 or 1924. We didnot get
dead body of our military personal untril our Government regotice the Sovirt
Union as being than legal government.

 

So let me get this khat. Turkey is a member of NATO, and saddam is going to attack turkey with all of his might and win offcourse. think this first. His army sucks. How is he going to get a good army that is only trained in one military tactic wich is: storm. This army consists mostly of cowards and people that is there only because they get food. During the last gulf war he had to have deathsoldiers to walk behind his lines so people would not dessert. This army has in five years gone from a army that has not been uppgraded since the begginng of the 90 and will attack the massed soldiers of the NATO countrys with this army....hmm how will that go.
As for your descreption of how the us will be destroyed. i find it hard to understand that a country like the US will be destroyed that easly. And just how are they going to get the bomb into the us. The cia will be on their tail for another 50 years because of the 11 september.

 

OK lots to say here to many peps so again I won't use quotes but try to get to the point.

First Carlstar:
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and correction. Yeah I can pay attention every once in a while but don't let anyone know
A lot of your arguement depends on the survial of the US so read below for my thoughts on this.

Regarding my post on Kuwait this is yet one more EXCELLENT reason to invade Iraq. 11 YEARS he has held these people prisoner does anyone care about them? Saddam gives NOTHING and takes whatever he can get. But we should leave his poor country alone. I don't think so.... Go in there kick his butt out try those that supported him FREE the Iraqi people and FREE the POW's that should have been released 11 YEARS (of their lives wasted) ago and disarm this terrorist war machine.....

Dragoon:
Yes I do find something wrong with our reasons but are you saying that because this was true that we should have let Iraq keep Kuwait to avoid a conflict of interest? Duh! We did the right thing, it may have been for the wrong reasons but we did the right thing and we are STILL paying for it out the butt.

CharlesBHoff:
Please, please please do not be insulted by this because I honestly did try to read what you were trying to say but I could not understand any of it well enough to address it point for point (except for in the beginning where you clear up how and when Persia was broken up and I thank you for that).

But I will say that you seem to make a lot of points without any proof. Please provide links that will back up what you are saying or find a better way to present what you are saying or I will stick with what I KNOW to be true because I can provide links (and I do where needed) or at least I can present it well enough to know that I am clearly understood when I am done.

I think I have proven one thing here, I do not take this lightly and I am not some stupid red neck that's saying bomb them cause we got nothing better to do. I think I have proven that I care a lot about this topic and that I have researched it. If you care just as much then I think it's only fair that you provide the same level of debate that I do. If someone proves me wrong I swear I will be the first to admit it.
BUT I will not sit around listening to someone tell me the sky is purple when I KNOW it's blue.

Qilikatal:
You and Carlstar do provide an interesting debate but not a very convincing one. The reason being that I have based everything I have said on history I have used historical facts to prove my points. 1) IF the US falls or becomes a secondary power NATO won't mean squat! The US and to some extent England are the only things that are keeping NATO together. Per my example Turkey falls AFTER the US falls, and the US is only 2 or 3 nuc strikes away from total ruin. 2 or 3 suitcase sized nucs would wreck enough havoc to slow US to a halt and if you would like me to believe that it is not possible to get this into MY country well lets just say it's MY country and i know it's possible. Our openness is what has gotten US into this mess and it will be the death of US yet.

Now my MAIN beef is that everyone is centering on Turkey!!!
Hello! I devoted less then one sentence to this country the whole point I was trying to make was what COULD happen SHOULD the US fall. A lot if not ALL of the security and stability that many of you now enjoy and take for granted depends on the security and stability of the US. Many are blind to this fact or do not wish to see it.

But it's like I said we are not talking about Belgium here, we are talking about a blood soaked country that rejoices in the deaths of others while using others to keep it safe. Some think the US is a Bully well let me say this bully is not threatening the school nerd or weakling, it is trying to take care of a much more brutal bully.

Qilikatal: I have to wonder where your voice was when Iraq was invading Iran or Kuwait or when it was lobbing bombs at Israel? I want to kill a killer you want to see him live to kill another day. Sorry I can't go for that, I won't. No matter how you pant it a maniac is a maniac and skunks don't change their strips. When your hero provides unquestionable proof that he has disarmed his country then and ONLY then will I back off. After 11 years I am sure that he won't, how can YOU defend this?????

No, 11 YEARS is MORE then long enough to wait for someone to do the right thing, now it time for US to prove that we meant what we said. There is a price to pay FOR NOT OBEYING INTERNATIONAL LAW....

 

No, it's definitely good Kuwait was freed but I find it somewhat surprising that you lack criticism as to Bush junior's intentions making him go into that area again. As I wrote it before it's not US going to Iraq that bothers me all that much - it's that I don't understand why B. jr is craving to do it so much.

 

A VERY MOST EXCELLENT point :nod: my friend, I am not sure why either, there are most certainly other motives involved here but regardless we may again be doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. Either way 11 years is still a long time to wait for a death sentence to be carried out (especially when the accused could stop the process at anytime by co-operating), better now then giving it another couple of years.....