usausausausausausaor is it land ofthemightyweshouldntannoy

Quick and easy here. Dose The USA deserve to or have the right to say what happens in the middle east. Its a former friend they want to stop, kind of like public enemy number one.

I dont think they do but who's going to stop the USA. Oz is for the USA and there continue war on who ever they want but where dose that stop. The pending Iraq war was always going to happen because of the constant bombing for 11 years, so should anyone be shocked or surprised by this. There isnt one country that can keep up with the USA war machine and is that the reason why the likes of England are against it.

I wonder what you all think. Have your say and if you controlled the USA what would you do?

 

:roll: Oh, shit. Here we go.........

 

HEHEHEHEHHEE

 

I would try to make friends with Iraq and everyone else, even if that initially made me unpopular at home.

Nuclear weapons are a fact, as are biological and chemical ones. As technology advances, there is no way the USA can control the dissemination of weapons of mass destruction. The only safeguard against their use is lowering tensions and conflict. Even then, there is no protection against madmen, which is something we'll probably just have to come to terms with.

I think all the countries involved, including those in the middle-east should be putting a lot more effort into forming friendships and reducing suspicions and resentment. Opening borders, giving more aid, exchanging information, making trade deals, all these things are "tools at [Bush's] disposal" that he seems to have forgotten about.

Please don't bother flaming me over this. It's just my opinion and I realise it is not shared by many.

[EDIT]Bugger - I walked right into that one, didn't I?

 

crash bang opera

I'm all for thinking that Bush thinks he got voted in for his stance vs. iraq and the rest of the evil out there (Why else did the americans vote for him).

I'm thinking that if the USA goes in all gun a blazing then the Iraqis will come out all weapons a going. Its taken sadahm 30 years to get to where he is and where his family and are friends are and they arn't going to give it up and its all going to head towards Israel because thats the USA for the middel east and they are the invaders too. Modern Iraq is only 90 years old so it make 30 years look like a long, long time.

 

I think you're probably right. Iraq are also being a lot more subtle (devious, perhaps) with the international relationships side of things at the moment. I think the situation has the potential to drag a lot of other countries into the conflict, and escalate things to a scale that even the USA won't feel comfortable about.

 

If the US is complaining about another country having weapons of mass destruction, let me ask the question: who has the MOST weapons of mass destruction?

I condone all kind of war.
The US is on a Crusade, where they are acting as "the good guy" protecting their interests, when in reality the act of starting a war (no matter what the reason) makes them as bad as "the others".

I do not think that the US should meddle in the Middle East at all, in fact I do not think that the US should meddle anywhere outside the US.

I pray that it will never come to a point where we self-destruct as a civilization. But the mere fact that weapons of mass destruction exists (regardless of who has control of "the button") poses a risk to humanity as a whole.

Also, the US manipulates the media to say what they want to say. And this is international. It is more obvious inside the US (US newscasts make me sick uke: ) but it happens across the board.

I do not want to complain about it too much though, for that makes me another whiner.

I'd rather share with you my personal grain of sand to the solution: I try to be tolerant. I try to accept people openly. I try to learn from differences and improve. Every living organis knows right from wrong. Then, I try to do what I think is right. And I know I am not the only one. Many people across the world, regardless of religion, color, nationality, or race follow the same principle.

I don't always succeed, but I try.

 

i have a feeling that you and i are thinking the same thing here fatman but there must be others that think its wrong, otherwise why would this be an issue.

Were you an anti Afgan attack person fatman or did you see that as a good response or are you more a, the USA deserved it for the constant sanctions on that area and the constant control that they think they have the right to rule developing Muslim nations.

Did that come out right. Is that an askingg for a flaming. should i put myself in jail like the people that are there in the USA just because they could but still not charged after 6 months.

 

No, I do not think the USA deserved it. The attack was unprovoked as far as I could see and not at all defensive or altruistic in nature. It was also made against a civilian target, which is never acceptable to me.

As for the response, I was disappointed the culprits have yet to be brought to justice and I am also unnerved that the condemnation/disassociation from Muslim communities has either not been strong or has not received adequate media coverage. I don't think they should give up the hunt, either.

I see this as a separate issue, though. Even separate from other political issues relating to Afghanistan and the middle-east. It's a response to a crime against humanity. Naturally the response should be reasonable and kept under control, but the attack required some response.

 

If it makes you feel any better, our (the USA, that is) last president, Bill Clinton, sold some of our most advanced (and secret) missle technology to China, in exchange for financial support in office. There will be war again, no one can stop it. USA has nearly all it's inventions/products made in China (We patent them, you build them), and China has already said they want to wage war against the USA. So, we are giving them money to fund the missle technology they bought so they can blow us all up.

Rather disturbing, if you ask me.

I think that everyone has wanted to fight the USA because of our technology. Ever heard the expression "Those Inventive Americans"? Our country does the most research (and inventing) then most of the countries in the world, and everyone wants to get a hold of our blueprints. We invent the most, but as I said above, other country's hold our stock market and construct our devices for us. In China/Japan, it is cheap labor to do this, but sometimes a company will sell the products so cheap, that they almost go bankrupt, so they can hold the stock market, and drive out all the competition. Well, one good thing about the USA, is that it may have saved the rest of the world. Example: In the early 1900's, when WWII began, the germans had their most brilliant scientists (including Albert Eignstien, himself) working on building a super-bomb (the Atomic Bomb), but then, Albert, with some other scientists, decided they didnt want to work for the Natzies. So, they were brought to the USA for protection, and a new place to stay, where everyone could live. Because of having Albert on our side, we came up with the Atom Bomb before Germany. Then, we stopped the war. Imagine what would have happened, if the USA didnt take those scientists, and Germany came up with the bomb first? It would be Fallout in reality!

 

It doesn't matter who creates it.
It's who uses it.
What do you think the Japaneese CIVILIANS felt after the two bombs where dropped in 1945?
And it was not the Nazis who dropped them.
Such an act of violence, is intolerable, and the US is the only country that has used weapons of mass destruction.

Murdering people, under any pretext, is not acceptable.

 

I'm glad i live in such a small insignificant indifferent country

Well...

I think it's very unfair to say America deserved the 9-11 disaster. USA drop a bomb in the middle east killing a few civilians, people are outraged. Afghan terrorists capture 4 planes and crash them into various buildings killing thousands, and they cheer and burn the American flag in the street. No good'll come from that.

Frankly, i think the middle east is so hopelessly bent on religious belief, that they're unable to see beyond suicide-bombing their way out of things, and try to reason with themselves and their fellow men. It's truly pathetic, and i doubt it'll stop before the last two survivors storm at each other with 20 pounds of TNT strapped to their chests.


As for USA vs. Ira(n?)q, seems like some sort of vendetta against Saddam Hussein. 'Course, i'm not American, so i don't know what exactly he's been the cause of, and there's no point in denying he's a sick bastard, not exactly trying to hide it either, but other than that i don't know much about the problems he might have caused. He has his small country and the people love him, what will an attack from the US do? It will only enforce the people's love for him, and turn even more people towards hating USA.


And as i am the author of this post, making it completely unneccesary to say it's my own opinion , i will say it anyway: It's my own opinion, however right or wrong it may be.

Jeez, gotta write a legal disclaimer to prevent offending anyone these days

 

Yeah, yeah, America is the big bully who is always meddling where they don't belong and nobody likes us. That is until it's YOUR pathetic country who's getting attacked or f**ked with, then it's a different story. The U.S. will be the first ones you turn to for help! Bunch of hypocrite pussies, you make me sick.

 

Hoho - there's always one who sends the debate down the shitter, isn't there?

Oh well, nice try Carlstar, I suppose we ought to thank Darkwalker for rescuing us and saving our families of pussies. Thanks, Darkwalker, you're a credit to your country!

 

Just like anybody with white teeth is a credit to yours Fatman. :lol:

 

Ahhhhh, American nationalism...

 

It was just after the 11th reply to. Hmmm... is there something in that, i think not.

I guess the "you are all weak and we save you' comment had to come when talking about one of the biggest issues of the day. I suppose we, (not of the USA) dont get to have a say or an opinion.

So. who likes ice cream and should ice cream be classed as a weapon of mass destruction?

 

I imagine that nationalists are the same everywhere, Rat.

As an American, I have to say that I'm extremely skeptical about the whole Iraq situation. I'm not even sure exactly why we are doing this; Whether there's solid reasoning behind it or if it's more political manuvering by Bush. I don't have much in depth knowledge on the subject, and what I do know comes mostly from reading the papers and listening to talk radio which is basically extreme viewpoints from the far left and far right. Not the best way to make an informed opinion.

Nevertheless, here's how I see it -- Do the pros outweigh the cons? As things stand now, I think the answer is no. What would be our motivation for supporting this?

-We get to topple Saddam Hussein, something the Bush family has wanted since the last war with Iraq. Why exactly we should want to get rid of Saddam, I have yet to find a good reason for. To my thinking, all we would be doing is substituting a known threat with an unknown one. Say we do get rid of Hussein, what then? A grab for power amongst his sons and the upper crust of his governement? These are not pedigree people.

-Bush gets another supposed feather in his cap and boosts his chances of a re-election. Why we should want this is beyond me. The high popularity that Bush curried after the whole 9/11 tragedy has been on the wan following the downturn of the economy.

-The sanctions against Iraq will, I think, be lifted if Hussein gets toppled. This is one plus in my book. I was uncomfortable with the suffering that Iraqi citizens had to go through because they were unable to get rid of their local dictator. It seemed uncomfortably close to the US using the suffering of the Iraqi people as leverage against a ruthless dictator. A losing game, because said dictator couldn't give two shits whether his own people were starving or dying because of those sanctions. To my eyes, he seemed more than willing to martyr his people to make the US look bad, something the US was too willing to play along with.

How about some cons?

-Destabilization. This is the key thing in my reasoning so far. All we'll be doing by attacking Iraq is throwing yet another destabilizing factor into the Middle East. There is no doubt in my mind Israel will take the brunt of an Iraqi retaliatory strike.

Eh, fuck... I don't know. It's getting late and I gotta go. I'll add some more stuff later. I really need to bone up on current events and the history of the region before I can dig into a topic like this.

 

I will use Milo's pros'n'cons approach only reversed:

cons:

- US is actually alone here, even england, afaik, does not support Bush on this one. There's Israel but other than saying "kill dirty Arabs" I doubt they'll do much. It'll probably be "Well we do have a situation here and no manpower to spare so you perhaps we''ll let you use our air-space. Or perhaps not".

- Arabs are pissed off. Perhaps Bush will manage to convince other countries to stay out of it with Iraq but it's for sure that if he said "Time for Iran" they'll notice that he just wants to hit them one by one. It doesn't mean that even united they could manage to repel US and invade it but they might offer US a new trauma compared to which Vietnam would be a sweet dream.

- !!!New leader for Iraq!!! Not a single guarantee he'll be any better than his predecessor in the long run.

- This is personal one. It's not that much of US going to Iraq, it's that imo Bush craves for wars to happen as it is his only chance to gain popularity and whatnot. Yes, I don't like him.


pros:

- The aim of this war will be to prevent weapons of mass destruction to spread in the region. India and Pakistan have nukes already and it doesn't actually make anyone happy so preventing more unstable countries from gaining such is a good thing. Whether it'll be achieved is another issue.

- Not a single person in war industry is warried with the ongoing crisis anymore

 

I don't think Israel would be asked for an opinion. If the war spills outside Iraq, they'll be the first target for many Arab nations.

The destabilizing factor is a big worry to me. A Balkan power vacuum contributed to the drawing of countries into WWI. Creating a similar situation in Iraq might have the potential to draw in North African, Middle-Eastern and West Asian countries in who are otherwise not directly involved in the political situation.

On the whole, I think Milo's attitude sums it up for me; I don't see what there is to gain for anyone not having a US political career to consider, and there is a large potential for loss to everyone.