US Attack

Blaming the victim

I'm sorry for your loss, loseing family is never easy, loseing them to violence is even worse. If blaming the US government makes you feel better even a little, please do.

There is one question I would like to pose however, how should the US have behaved, and how should they behave in the future? If there were solutions that could make everyone happy don't you think we would have used them? Perhaps the US should simply withdraw from international affairs entirely. I know there are Americans who would agree with this. Pull back, stop interfereing, and if the Arabs slaughter the Jews (or vice versa), well, we're half the planet away after all, why should we risk American lives trying to put an end to it?

I try to remember to never criticize something unless I can come up with something better, and this is a problem with no easy answers.

I'm afraid I do take certain offense regarding the exponential-thread-multiplying phrase "the US had it coming" however. Another form of this statement proved a major deterrant against prosucuting rape. The mindset was that it was the victim's fault. If she hadn't worn that dress, or flirted with him, or allowed him to get her alone, it wouldn't have happened. She could have prevented it if she hadn't done those things, therefore it's her own fault she got raped. Thank God we have grown enough to recognize the inherent fallicies of this argument, and by not allowing rapests to hide behind this defense, more of them are unable to harm anyone else. Does that make sense? Blaming the victim for an act of violence only serves to help permit further violence.

 

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Acacia22 on 2001-09-13 02:10 ]</font>

 

Pyreforge: I'm not blaming anybody for my loss the conflict is to blame, this has been brewing for a long time, todays bombing is not a result of last weeks incidents, no The US had many chances of withdrawing over the years and it's the Jews that ar ekeeping them there.And Also I knew not to mention my loss 'cause some asshole or something would use it as an argument to again defend the US pleaseee. The US is no world Police sticking their nose into every possible confikt to test out their neww guns and to use some armory. the arabs got slapped aroud think of Sadam?! Poor guy can't even take a dump without the US knowing. But he ALSO had it coming, it is HIS fault! It's the same here
Islam is almost fanatical but it is their religion, long time ago Chrystians were slaughtering people in the name of god
Think of New Constatinople A whole ciwiliztion destroyed...
Personally I don't like arabs, I've lived long enough with them to know that they ar epeople you can't trust for some reason.
They will not stop untill they are all dead or untill jews mve out. Now the US must have known this when they were lending a hand to the jews, now the arabs are a thorn stuck in their foot a thorn which killed hundreds of innocent people, really, they should have thought about this long long time ago. and now I know it is too late. this attack shows someone has enough of bullshit and is capable of taking a shit in the backyard of the most powerful country in the world...

 

Well, so the super-power is on its knees. Somebody mention that the US had it coming, I have the same thoughts, I mean I have nothing against Americans, but if you try to be objective for one minute they seem to be a little bit arrogant. They made way to many enemies around the globe and now is the harvest time. And as usually for the "wrong" decisions of the government the innocent people will pay the final price.

Everybody is saying the guilty party has to be brought to justice, so what's the punishment for let say 40 thousand counts of first degree murder, these days.
There was a movie called "The Siege" I believe, unfortunately I don't think we going to have happy ending here and won't stop with one person getting shoot.

But as I already said it on the other forum the saddest thing is the happiness of the Palestinians after the news broke out. Are they completely lost their mind? If anybody had some sympathy for these guys surely lost it now.

(sorry if I offended some southern friend, but everybody is entitle to his own opinion)

Seth.

 

they were happy?! WOW now that's what I call a wrong political move!!
I can't imagine who would be happy about a mass destruction of human life! Even the Palestinians! But They will also pay the piper.

 

Yup. The headline was something with "celebrating" they were shooting in the air, smiling faces, if you go to some news sites with the photos I'm sure you will see it.

 

BROCO01: I lived in a muslim country sourrounded only by muslims and went to a muslim school for 5 years. I know what I saw, besides real muslims never disclose informations about their religion, you are a heretic to them period. they don't tell you that but it's the truth. Bang

 

Seth: hmm it's like a religios high! They are so happy 'cause the damn americans got what they deserve! NOW that is a whole lot of brahim crap! that is really muslim mentality. no sympathy whatsoever
now thast stinks

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jinxed on 2001-09-12 02:19 ]</font>

 

Jinxed, I think people like you are one of the exact reasons they did what they did today.

 

really? you think so what is so bad about me?
huh? Maybe you don't understand things I write?

 

MaoZedong: Hmm, maybe we have a person here that thinks after killing hundreds on people we should celebrate!! Call yer friends! people are dead!
you are a very disturbed induvidual.
no matter the cause no matter who no matter what there is no excuse for MURDER, innocent or not, no one made them judge,
Now the US are being sentenced without a trial

 

wait a minute.. where's the website that shows the pic of the palestenian celebrating?? care to put a link.. i couldn't find it..

not trying to imply anything, but there are a lot of violence going on in palestine last couple of weeks, i read somewhere that the palestinians claim the israelis are close to demolishing their main mosque or sth.. as for celebrating the death of many, that is plain wrong! but i would like to see the evidence myself since i kinda not entirely trust some of the networks here when it comes to the palestinian issues..

 

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I hope it's gonna work

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sethmage on 2001-09-12 04:09 ]</font>

 

Damn it doesn't work, anyway go to Yahoo.com there is a picture of smoking towers, under the picture there are photos - video, click on photos (there is like 10 pages of it) and I believe it is on fourth page or so, can't miss it.

 

Sigh.

Actually, Jinxed, yes, we sell armaments to Israel. We also sell them to many of the Arab nations.

During the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts, we did not intervene. We did not take the side of the Israelis. They kicked the crap out of their Arabic neighbors with no diplomatic nor military help from us. In fact, during the original war that created Israel, they didn't use US arms except from what they could scrounge from WW2 surplus. They were incredibly outnumbered, yet won. Heck, one of their best tank commanders was a Soviet Jew that had emigrated.

Almost sounds as if you don't like Jews as much as you don't like Muslims. While I don't condone all Israel has done, I think they have some pretty good reasons to do them. About 6 million reasons. During WW2, no one helped them. Not the US, not Britain, not the Arabs, not Poland. And Poland has a pretty bad track record with them. After WW2, what did Poland do? Held a few pogroms to drive out the rest of the Jews. As did many other Eastern European nations. While a few individuals may have responded to their plight as truly giving humans, most of the world turned their backs on them. That's something Israel will never forget.

Oh, the bit about the Japanese and what they teach hits the news every few months or so, usually on the back pages of the newspapers. Also saw it in a couple of new articles, and read it in some books.

As to the bombing, I still have trouble comprehending it. I wasn't there & I don't know anyone who was. It's still so surreal. For the victims, I feel nothing but sadness and compassion. For the emergency services (police, fireman, EMT, etc), I feel nothing but pride. Those people knew the risks of a collapse, yet went in to do their duty. And many paid the ultimate price. Tonight, in good ol' Texas fashion, I say lift a drink in their memory. It's what I did.

As for justice and retribution, it'll come. We may have to wait a bit for everything to be sorted out, but I think someone miscalculated. Americans may seem arrogant yet soft to the rest of the world, but we can respond with fury and passion if provoked. And I believe we just were.

 

Let's face it. People hate the US. I don't like it much, and I am from a country that isn't too far removed from it. Add into this the factor of religious fanaticism and you have a recipe for disaster.

I think that this is a very tragic incident, and it scares me that this may set a precedent for anyone else wanting to take potshots at the US. It's not like the authorities have a great deal of chance at tracking down the culprits, and even if they do, what? Declare a religious war and become like a bigger more powerful version of the enemy, while allying people against them? Fuck that.

Now if these profiteering capitalist nations actually put some money toward impoverished nations without oil or gold or whatever other resource, then the "first world" might have a few less enemies.

 

Nobody's hands are clean.

A quote comes to mind.

"We have awakened a sleeping giant and have instilled in him a terrible resolve."
-Imperial Admiral Yamamoto upon completion of the attack upon Pearl Harbor

I'm an American, but I'm not a patriot. I've spent my entire adult life watching everything from a president who was clearly going mad with senility to the recent flying circus of interns, vote recounts, and deception (oh my!). My personal expectations of my government are low, to say the least.

That said, I am an American, and my home has just been attacked.

I'm not an old man yet, but I'm old enough to have seen a great deal of the best and a great deal of the worst that people are capable of offering. No one deserves what is "coming to them."

But I reiterate. My home has been attacked.

No matter how civilized, or how barbaric a culture is perceived to be by its peers, the response to this sort of attack is going to be similar. Its not an issue of humility or pride, and lord knows; Retribution is not about right and wrong. Its more primal than that.

My home has been attacked. Fight or flight.

And, like I said. I'm older now. I don't find any satisfaction or particular use in postmodern philosophy beyond examining entertaining fluff.

Once all else has failed, I don't care why someone I've never dealt with personally wishes to destroy me, other than to learn how it can be exploited against them. If that someone wishes me physical harm, we have nothing further to talk about. When they act upon those impulses, I respond.

Like many people.

 

re

It is understandable that the somewhat ignorant palestinians might have been celebrating. The States have been giving funding support to Israel to take down palestinian unarmed civilian targets and when someone else with the power to threaten the States in such a way succeeds, you can bet those people will be relieved or even happy.

Now remember when the States dropped Hiroshima, her allies cheered, commended the States and enjoyed the moment too before they realized it is a major tragedy that took so many lives. They were GLAD the Japanese were out of their way while they deal with the rest of their enemies. Similar scenario with the Palestinians cheering. With the way the western media so biased against the middle east, of course they'd make it widely known live..just so the States can point a finger at someone before they realize its not by nations already engaged in war, but perhaps another great nation that sympathizes the nations that is oppressed by US' ally Israel.

 

Ok, 4:45 am the next day, calmed down, I apologize if I offended anyone with my previous comments, but I, like a million others over here, am a stirred up hornet.
I think the important thing for the US is to find where this originated from and eradicate it so it doesn't happen again, but as I've seen from this thread, there aren't too many US fans and we could've been attacked from any direction.
I'm not up to date with US affairs, but I agree that the States should keep to themselves and let the Middle East destroy itself, as well it was also extemely silly that the second Bush got into power, spy planes were sent to China.
There's been discussion on this in other forums, some feel that the organization responsible and only that organization should be drawn out and punished, others feel that this won't get a big enough message across and that we need a Hiroshima 2, otherwise appear soft and an open door for more attacks.
This wasn't just an attack on the US, it was an attack on US citizens, it was an attack on me. I could've been in any of those four planes, I could've been visiting the World Trade Center.
Just curious, for those outside the US, what would you want to see done if this was your country and your friends and family that were pointlessly destroyed?

 

These are only single points. Most important things were finally condemning Israel for it's actions against Palestinian officials and civilians and for treating Palestinians living in Israel as a second or even third class citizens (The only really unfortunate thing about this resolution is that the word 'genocide' got into the document.). Let's face it. Those bombs blowing up in Israel are carried by terrorists but responsibility falls upon civilians and in turn on whole of Palestine. Another very important issue during conference was apologising for slavery – I mention it in the last place not because it means less to me but because it isn't relevent here.

Could you quote the words of criticism? I heard only about US officials being sent to Israel to try and negotiate peace. And US is the country that could do most about this issue. It would simply require stating something like: “Stop murdering civilians and begin dealing with terrorists aiding Palestinian government or we'll stop pumping all this cash to you�.

And do you remember how this latest conflict started? There was generally something you could call a peace in that region and then one day some Israel official (Prime Minister I think) decided that he has to show Palestinians he doesn't give a damn about them and went to some Palestinian holy place (accompanied by soldiers of course). Palestinians strongly, but peacefully, protested against it. He had no reason to go there other than showing how tough he is. Practically he started the conflict and extremists on both sides continue it..

You can write as many documents condemning Muslim countires as you wish but they still won't give a damn about it. It's better to appeal (yes appeal, not 'bash' as you call it – Israel was bashed) to a country which may be expected to respond to it in a civilised manner. Unfortunately, ignoring all the arguments, US just backed up Israel again instead of helping in rephrasing the document and backing it up.

Fortunately you're not the one to decide. It's not justice but revenge. And it would only lead to yet another attack. Just the way it works in the Middle East. I can undersatnd people craving for revenge after this but when it comes to true justice one cannot be overcome by emotions.

You completely misinterpreted what people here said. US is not to blame for being attacked. Please don't accuse me of backing up some bullshit theories about victim being responsible especially while referring this to rape as, in my opinion, it is one of the worst crimes comitted and I am always outraged at the very lenient punishment for it. I will say it again. US is not to blame but acting in a way it did terrorists' attacks happening again in US could've been foreseen.

Not Poland but some Polish people in a few places in Poland. Don't mix individuals' or even groups' actions with those of a country. I'm not saying it didn't happen. It did and Poland apologized even though Poland as a country was not repsonsible. Just like those other Eastern naitons. So don't blame a country for actions of a few,

One more thing about being left alone. Poland was left alone as well, it's allies didn't hurry when it was attacked. And when WW2 ended Poland along with many other Eastern nations was sold to USSR along with other Eastern nations. We were just not important enough to be fought for.


I just remembered this thing about Palestinians being happy. An extremely stupid thing to do but there were not lots of them cheering – from what could've been observed less than a hundred or so in total and they were showing the same people over and over again. No larger demonstrations - yet. Palestinian officials condemned this attack (so far Iraqe is the only one that didn't – but they're in state of war with US). I'm afraid however that the whole Palestine will have to pay for that bunch of stupid extremists.