Discussion in 'News Comments' started by mathboy, Oct 23, 2007.
Speaking of RPGs, any of you know the hungarian M.A.G.U.S., is there any english translation ?
Writing "the americans" was shorter than writing "the people who created D&D and Warhammer, who are most probably american".
But why should I explain myself? I really don't give a shit about what you think of me.
Wolfsbane...you just attacked an entire culture of people because of D&D. And you have your panties in a bunch because the only person here who agrees with your view of orcs is Wobbler.
I've read all of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings series, and I have to say that I do not like his orcs. I like the orcs that inspire fear, and that actually look like they could kick my ass. His original orcs look more like goblins in my mind. And, guess what; they're almost the same thing in his books.
I'm not sure why, but your inability to accept that people have their own ideas about fantasy is rather disturbing to me. I at least said I don't care what your orcs look like. I just know mine are colorful.
I think you are forgetting that Tolkien created and entire culture along side with an entire lenguage when he made up the Orcs?
And thinking that Tolkiens bascilly created orcs and the base for half of every goddamn fantasy world is no quite the same thing as believing the world is flat, since the world isn't flat, but Middle Earth is the base for most fantasy worlds.
So Tolkien is God and all bow before everything he says and does and said and did, and when he comes again at the end times of all fantasy, he shall smite down the non-believers and all those heathens who do not follow his interpretation of made up fantasy races and all the true believers will be spirited away to play with gay elves and pussy orcs all day in what is actually an overly-longwinded, overly-simplistic, if well-detailed fantasy setting?
Oh god you two, shut the fuck up. 'Writing "the americans" was shorter than writing "the people who created D&D and Warhammer, who are most probably american".' Wolfsbane, you're being an idiot, and an obnoxious one at that.
If you trust wikipedia for even basic information, they have three quotes of Tolkiens.
"the word is, as far as I am concerned, actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability"
Between Norse and Old English, orc or various spellings of it mean everything from walking dead, to ogre, to giant, to hell-demon, and back. Tolkien latched onto demon because he needed a name for a creature in his story and, you see that last part, chose orc because it sounded cool.
Also, according to Basile, dead 350 years before DND was pupularized, huorco means giant or monster. It's the Naples dialectic form of orco, which derives from the same roots as orc. He was talking about a large, masculine beast, both hairy and tusked, that spoke and lived in a dark forest. The moral fiber of the beast changed depending on the tale, but it was known to capture and eat humans.
As to your attacks on dnd, maybe you don't read that much, maybe you're just not creative, but dnd HAS a pretty good history of the orcs. The reason most history in dnd isn't as verbous as Tolkien's is because A. dnd is a game and most of the crap Tolkien talked about doesn't come up, and B. it's all up to the dungeon master anyway, so he can fill in the details to fit his specific game.
That said, orcs have a creation myth and a basic culture. They are usually tribal and as violent as any testosterone-charged pack of savages might be when stuck in the hills, persecuted by elves, humans, and dwarves. They have a patriarchal social system, ruled by the strongest in the tribe. Orcs are nocturnal, probably an evolved trait due to living in caves for so long, which they do as a result of being hated by the top three civilized races in most worlds.
The warriors leave during the night to raid, pillage, acquire supplies, while the pregnant and nursing females stay home with the orc babies, along with those who are injured. If an orc is injured to such a degree that he or she becomes an undue burden to the rest of the tribe, they kill him. Orcs are a somewhat religious people, praying to Gruumsh, their war/creator god, before battles and providing sacrifices in his honor after battle. They fight well, but not necessarily fairly, using ambushes and cutthroat tactics to get what they want, and actually, although most orcs are barbarians and many are fighters, they also have a fair many rogues and the occasional sorceror.
That is the dnd interpretation of an orc, and actually, there's a hell of a lot more too. Then again, since dnd and warhammer and, in general, all "American" rpgs, which may or may not have actually been made by Americans, suck balls from the onset and require no research because it is impossible for anything good to not come out of Europe.
You both need to stop being arrogant dicklicks. If you disagree with the dnd view of orcs, or the warhammer one, or whatever view, fine, they're fucking imaginary anyway. But don't forcefeed your fantasies of ass-fucking Aragon on everyone who happens to disagree with you: Tolkien had a good many brilliant ideas, but he was a poor, if thorough, writer. His plot is interesting, but unimaginative, and his descriptions are beautiful and in depth, but become longwinded after the second paragraph describing one plate. Just because something is inspiring doesn't mean its right, especially when the very topic denotes that there is no right answer.
Good. You really don't want to know what I think of you now after stereotyping my fellow Americans out of your own laziness and over such a stupid topic too.
Blinks, seriously, I can think whatever I want. If I want to say that Tolkiens orcs are cooler, I can say so. If I think D&D stole Tolkiens orcs and ruined them, I can say so. If I think "the americans" did this, I can very well say so. Most americans don't even know the differance between Sweden and Switzerland, so I'm entitled to think whatever I like about your homeland. Did I insult you by saying that you americans twisted Tolkiens orcs? Grow fucking up. What I say is true anyway; it was americans who wrote D&D and warhammer, thus making (those) americas responsible.
And you, whatever your name was, you can hate me all you like for "Insulting you and your Fellow Americans". That actually made me laugh. If you insulted every person in Sweden, including me, I wouldn't care. 'Cause you're half away around the world.
All I'm saying is: I like Tolkiens orcs more, and I think it's a shame that they've become green fucking brutes. I don't care what you think, really.
You can say whatever you want, it doesn't make you any less of an ignorant fool. I would actually venture to say that I'm acting a little more "grown up" than you, because you're the one who's started the whole argument. An argument, may I add, that prefaces upon that which is exactly contrary to your previous statement; you started bickering because you have a qualm with everyone who disagrees with you about a fictional race of creatures.
At the same time as you prove yourself an obnoxious hypocrite, you're also proving yourself an ignorant bastard who likes to typecast entire nations of people based upon faulty half-informed judgements that not only distort the facts, but also cast overly-wide nets as to what those facts apply to.
Frankly, I congratulate you for not caring what others think, you can repeat it all you want. But since it wouldn't matter to me what you had to say in response anyway, allow me to clarify that I'm only stating for the record and for communication with people who do matter that you're an immature little dipshit who starts fights that you can't win with people who are far better at this than you are.
If you had resigned yourself to simply stating an opinion, as IS your right to do, I wouldn't think you were such an annoying little bitch right now. But you seem to think that anyone here cares anymore about the shit that comes off your keyboard than you care about the logic spelled out on your monitor, and I would like to clarify that this is simply not the case; you are a stupid tool, and you are only proving my own point by arguing your points in such an ignorantly self-righteous manner. Frankly I think you're being a fucking idiot. Don't care all the hell you want.
what can I say...
I believe i was the one who started the whole argument, with Wolfie following up, and the fact that you didn't directly stopped, but continued in the same way, that hardly makes you more of a grown up.
And anything you say can be used agaisnt you.
"Fantasy", closely related to "imagination", and guess what, in Swedish we use the same fucking word for both.
Fantasy is all about imagination, not about faithfully adhering to a sexually repressed English professor who'd spend fifteen pages describing the fucking texture of a pudding. What you and Wolfsbane are going at would be like saying that any fantasy author whose elves aren't living in a divine realm ruled by a horny Vanir who thinks that an elk's horn is a good weapon to use against the forces of evil sucks elephant balls, because hey, that's the original idea isn't it?
All Swedes suck except me. I lick. And I'm damn good at it I hear.
You don't care yet you vehemently keep replying to what others, including myself, post in response to you. It's an ignorant person who thinks the opposite of Love is Hate. Both responses imply passion and a sense of interest to the cause of said feelings. If you really could not give a smaller shit about anything I, or anyone else says, you would turn your fucking little computer off and put us and this whole argument as far away from you as possible. In other words, you would be Indifferent to us and what we say to you, which is in stark contrast to how you are actually acting.
Now let me give you a little insight into what I am really giving you shit about, since I am now completely convinced you actaully do care inspite of your constant whining to the contrary: Sometimes it's not what a person says that is taken offense to, but how the person says it. You could have just stated, like a mature, Swedish, adult (assuming Swedish adults can be mature) that "hey, I don't dig these new D&D orcs, I think Tolkeins are better. What? You don't agree with me. Well that's your opinion." But no. You had to be a douche about it. When you stated your opinion and others didn't agree with it, you actually started holding an entire culture responsible for only a few of its members. When you say "The Americans stole and ruined JR's orcs and blah, blah, blah" you're now including ME (as an American) in the same context as the one's you're bitching about, even though my views are not the same as theirs. And you're right, I'm half way across the fucking globe, so how the hell do you know me so well that you'll group me and my views with those other Americans. And the way you say it (like secret agents from our governemt invaded your country and stole its plans for a new Hydrogen Bomb protocol) is a bit degrading. So no shit I'm going to take offense to it. Oh you wouldn't take offense if I started Swede bashing you on the forums right now? I almost feel sorry for you. Excuse me while I show a little patriotism for my country.
If you can somehow turn what I say against me wobbles, go right ahead, but neither of you are making any sense at all, because you and wolfsbane are both arguing simultaneously that you two have the right to your own opinion and no one has the right to engage you in a discussion about them, and that your opinions are somehow more valid than others, which brooks discussion. If neither of you can stand the proverbial heat then get the fuck out of the kitchen and stop causing debate if neither of you have the spine, will, or intelligence to back up your arguments with anything other than ignorance and some infantile devotion to a over-hyped dead writer.
I never intended to say I'm more grown up than either of you; evidence of that can speak for itself to either affirm or deny that question. Wolfsbane seems to think, however, that being annoyed at his blatant disregard for intelligence and verbal accountability is a sign of immaturity. I happen to vehemently disagree with him, because being responsible for what you say, or write, is actually one of the hallmarks of being able to call yourself mature and not being lying through your teeth. Call me silly for thinking that.
I'm pretty sure that Games Workshop created Warhammer, and that's a British company. Now, I guess that they could've employed an all American team to create their fantasy setting, but somehow it seems unlikely. You may now proceed to call them landsförrädare for perverting Tolkien's great work. (Why yes, that is a green orc showing you his tongue!)
i would just like to thank DE and Blinky for pointing out what i've been saying for years: it doesn't matter how great the story is; if it's poorly written, it sucks.
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