The Paradox

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Grossenschwamm, Oct 17, 2010.

Remove all ads!
Support Terra-Arcanum:

GOG.com

PayPal - The safer, easier way to pay online!
  1. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,341
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    I'm inclined to agree. I always kinda thought that Schrödinger's Cat was a big, fat, juicy lump of bull-shit.
     
  2. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,630
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Of course cats observe, but when's the last time you literally spoke to a cat?
     
  3. Zanza

    Zanza Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,296
    Likes Received:
    61
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2009
  4. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    You just said that your cat communicates itself to you quite reliably, Gross. Does it have to type a report to a scientific journal in perfect German before it can be considered to have affected the world by its observations?
     
  5. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,341
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    That's not the point. The 'living death' thing is only from the view of an outsider. I think I'm right in saying that it would achieve the same result with a person in the box, not communicating, with the cat outside it.
     
  6. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Yes, in the third book of the trilogy Muro's reading, Hyperion Cantos, it begins with a man in a Schrodinger's Box waiting to be executed by molecular decay triggering arsenic gas. Very witty book, I must reiterate.

    The point of the thought experiment was to bring the subjectivity of reality out of the subatomic realm and into our everyday world. It is obviously counter-intuitive but Schrodinger did state that until the box was opened and the molecular decay thereby observed, then the cat must be considered both alive and dead. It is not just the observer's point of view, according to the theory, but physical reality. The cat is considered actually and physically both dead and alive, until you open the box.

    This is solopsistic because it completely discounts the ability of a cat to measure its own reality. Having a human instead of a cat in the box demonstrates what a stupid conclusion it is.
     
  7. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,341
    Likes Received:
    15
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    I think it's stupid, even ignoring the fact that the cat can observe. Did you ever hear that riddle, 'What was the highest mountain before Mt. Everest was discovered'? It was Mt. Everest, even though it wasn't observed as such. Just because something can be one way or the other, and you don't know which it is, doesn't mean it's both ways at once in actuality. The cat is alive or dead before you look in the box, and you're only elucidating its state by looking; you don't create the state, except in your own mind.
     
  8. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    We agree, then, good sir.

    Yet, somehow, on the subatomic scale, observation does seem to actually change the actual reality... Crazy, stupid nonsense, but science nonetheless.

    As with most things, I think Terry Pratchet said it best: "Some things are so small that their ways are very strange indeed" - Thief of Time.
     
  9. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,630
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Good science always contradicts common sense these days. And yes, the results would be the same if there was a cat observing a human in Schrodinger's box.
     
  10. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Grossenschwamm, I have read over your posts more carefully and see your point of view better now.

    You were explaining the science quite accurately, sir, and I was mostly rephrasing it to suit myself. I quite agree with all you've said.

    I think I am just now tuning in to your style of language. Great respect to all of you here who learned english later in life, and use it better than most native-speakers.
     
  11. Transparent Painting

    Transparent Painting Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
  12. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,390
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Huh? I had him pegged as German mathemagician stuffed dinosaur. Sorry dude. I guess I really ought to sober up before posting.
     
  13. Transparent Painting

    Transparent Painting Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,138
    Likes Received:
    6
    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Well, we are a pretty mixed bunch. I guess the largest group is Americans, then we have some Brits, some Aussies and a few Swedes. The rest are mostly from Europe, I think.
     
  14. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,630
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Yeah, I'm a native-born Yank. I guess I have a peculiar manner of speech/writing.
     
  15. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,182
    Likes Received:
    22
    Joined:
    May 22, 2007
    It would seem half of us are from Italy. The hell...

    It's actually a tetralogy.
     
Our Host!