Technological Disciplines Improved

Oh right, I forgot about that.

Well score a point for me and another one for my poor memory.

However one thing I am sure of is that dwarven steel can only be acquired from the dwarven smiths in the Wheel Clan or in Caladon, aside from the one piece that is found in Mr. Plough's warehouse.

Sebastian, indeed, only appears when you come back to Tarant to look for Renford A. Terwilliger.

With regards to Droch's Warbringer... again I point out that I actually think it is sort of a bad thing. It is great for gun users, yeah, and true not every shooter is going to be a master gunsmith. However I feel its existence kind of undermines the gunsmithy discipline. It's bad enough that two handcannons, a repeater rifle (or infinite if you recruit Vollinger), a superior fine revolver (sharpshooter's pistol), a looking glass rifle, and two elephant guns can be acquired... and all without putting a single point in gunsmithy. Vendigroth should have had a another gun schematic that combines two large bore Vendigrothian rifles to create a super large bore Vendigrothian rifle.

Yes, but you can live even better with it. A gunslinger can complete the game, I've never doubted that. My first character was a gunslinger and after an extremely rough start he stared to make progress. Then one morning he woke up in the middle of a vast grassy field on another land standing in front of a naked shop-keeper...

The point is, part of the reason the other combat skills outclass firearms so much is all the extra speed they get. That's not even counting the huge boost in damage a melee user gets from having higher strength. Guns can beat the game, but not nearly as effectively as the other combat skills.

You are right, I just tested it out. Score another point for my memory. Looks like I'm in the lead.

Or half-ogre technologist. I need to try that sometime.

Yeah, I guess I see your point there but then you also kind of defeated your point about how cool it is to be able to build an automaton.

Maybe, but I think the trophy should be awesome for more reasons than the effort it took in achieving it.

If you don't hit the enemy you don't do any damage and some of the most lethal enemies out there can be difficult for even a high TA technologist to hit. Gore guards for example are fast and have a high MA. In addition to that I recall that they have ranks of dodge as well. Being able to nail one consistently is more important than being able to drop it in just one combat round.

Maybe my protos are bugged (since I'm using krupp's firearms fixes with the UAP) but without master training the range penalties can be pretty harsh and they set in very quickly.

Near level 40 or so when you've got high TA and have access to most of your gear, and have most of your skills near mastery level (or at it), accuracy isn't as much of a problem. However that's the end... What about all the time before it? The road for a gunslinger can be a long and hard one, needlessly so I think.

 

I've heard somewhere that aside from xp/damage, creatures also provide some xp upon death - minor by comparison, but I think I recall leveling up from Virgil finishing off a mob.

Wouldn't a fix be as easy as setting all xp/damage to 0, calculating the total xp/mob, and setting it as its kill xp?

That would instantly eliminate all charismatic and summoner player xp issues.

 

I have to agree that some tech stuff needs to be balanced, but I think most of the issue doesn't come from Tech being too weak, but from magic being too strong.
Arcanum's pretty easy, even on hard there are few situations that can't be dealt with through brute force even at lower levels.

 

This has been quite the entertaining discussion!

My initial impressions on magick-users (bearing in mind I have not actually played such a character) favor Langolier's opinion, and that is that it seems as if magick-users basically get two-for-one on CPs spent to purchase magickal spells. This ratio is based upon a technologist's expense at having to spend a CP to purchase a technological schematic and then another CP elsewhere in the skill appropriate for its use.

However, consider the economy of a CP spent in a skill related to the use of a particular technological item. Once spent, that CP does not need to be spent again, so that it is not as if each CP spent to purchase a schematic also requires a second CP spent elsewhere.

Given this rate of exchange, I would imagine that mages and technologists are balanced as far as their CP expenditure is concerned. A technologist will need to spend CPs on buying Intelligence in order to spend CPs on schematics, but mages have a similar attribute-to-spell expense, no? So between the two we can assume that these expenses cancel each other. We are left with the technologist who occasionally has to spend a CP into a skill to make his investment in his discipline worthwhile while the mage occasionally spends a CP on Constitution or Willpower to maintain his disciplines.

It's not as bad as I thought, after all.

 

You could do all that, but you could also do what I do;
Use the character editor to max out everything. Takes any sort of balance out of your character and that's pretty much it.

 

That's gross, Gross.

Indeed I did, but it was so because I understood your post as "switch around the positions of the looking glass rifle and handcannon or alter the handcannon" rather than "switch around the positions of the looking glass rifle and handcannon or and alter the handcannon".

As far as I know that is correct, yet again I ask, is that a bad thing? I wouldn't say that it is late enough to be a problem. Not to mention that if you build all of the best stuff at the very beginning, the rest of the game becomes quite boring.

I'm a bit at a loss here. Could you by any chance explain what exactly is wrong with the Warbringer from your point of view? I though it was about it being easily created by a layman with no Gun Smithy title (seeing how the ingredients are already there and all one needs is proficiency, possibly in the form of tech manuals) but wouldn't applying your...

...idea create the very same situation?

Firearms are seriously underpowered in Arcanum, there's no discussion about that.

Not necessarily. What I meant was that building an automaton is an accomplishment by itself and it's great for roleplaying purposes, even though I'm at the same moment aware that practically it is useless in the long run.

I had an army of ~20 automatons in one of my games (would be more, but the game was getting laggy as hell). Even though I didn't allow them to play any significant part in the combat, the very awareness of having them around was rewarding enough.

I just checked Gore Guards. They don't have any dodge skill.

As for hitting enemies with high MA - I don't recall having any problems with accuracy while fighting high MA with my gunslinger, so I guess the problem/not problem line is a subjective thing.

That's how things work in Fallout and I haven't heard anyone complaining.

 

I agree with you, and that's why I think it is good that the schematic for the machined plate is found in the wheel clan. I say, add at least one more dwarven steel so that if I get a doctorate in smithy and mechanical I can have an elite plate and have an automaton.

My problem with Droch's Warbringer is that it does not require a doctorate in gunsmithy to build. It's existence undermines the entire gunsmithy discipline because it can be built by a layman who has the parts and technical manuals and it is more powerful than the any other firearm (when you account for things like speed and weight). Someone with a doctorate in gunsmithy should ultimately have the best guns, that's why I feel there should be another schematic found in Vendigroth that requires components only a doctorate of gunsmithy will be able to obtain.

I was being sarcastic when I said "two large bore Vendigrothian rifles to make a super large bore Vendigrothian rifle." I understand why that would throw you off though. In my original post for this thread I actually recommended that the elephant gun built with the learned schematic should be different from the elephant guns found on the poacher leader and Franklin Pain. The same way that a quality revolver is different from a fine revolver.

You and your "facts". Pshaw!

(score another point for my memory)

In any case, earlier in the game when you might not have extremely high TA the +20 to hit from a looking glass rifle is the weapon's true advantage. Accuracy and damage need to be in balance.

 

Muro, it's not about complaining. I am pondering whether this is possible within Arcanum's game mechanics. An XP mod that changed XP gain from damage dealing to actual killing would be most welcome as I, too, am not a very big fan of the current system.

 

I must have been misunderstood there, Viktor. I meant that the effect of the solution you're suggesting would be Arcanum dealing with granting combat XP the exact same way Fallout does, plus that I haven't heard about anyone not liking that system. Not surprising really, because seriously, what's not to like?

In other words, I'm all for your idea, hoping that it will appear possible to implement. I'm no modder, but it sounds so in theory.

At worst, you will have your first automaton when you get to the Wheel Clan. It's not that bad really, many - if not most - technologists won't even have the required doctorates by then.

While I agree with your point, I feel obliged to remark that it would be hard to implement lore-wise. I doubt they had Elephant Guns in ancient Vendigroth. It sounds and looks like a modern invention to me.

Unrelated side note: Blimey, they have elephants in Arcanum! How else would they have Elephant Guns?

Hear, hear. Change Franklin's Elephant Gun to "Old Mary" and the poacher's one to "Rusted Elephant Gun", I say.

 

The reanimator schematic is Vendigrothian in nature and it requires a miracle cure.

I don't want to get into it really, but there are any number of ways you could implement this so that it made more sense lore wise. I would look at the elephant gun as more of an improvised component. You could even make a quest out of it if you wanted to.

I say give the rusted elephant gun lower damage and a to hit penalty and give Old Mary a "bonus" to critical fail.

 

From my current game I can say that I find the LGR to be a bit better than the HC. This is because you generally get what amounts to one free turn with the LGR if you start combat by sniping from a distance. The target will spend its first move trying to close. The accuracy bonus is actually very significant for these long-range shots, even for the Firearms Master.

The Mechanized Rifle is a perfect example of why Firearms are far less powerful in practice than they appear on paper. The MR uses so much ammo you simply cannot get enough to keep it supplied, barring spending day after day doing nothing but raiding the shops in Tarant. Even then, you simply can't carry enough with you to make it practical. Try cleaning out the BMC mines with a Mechanized Rifle. It'll be a breeze...as long as you don't mind running home to resupply about 10 times. The farther afield you have to go, the less practical it becomes.

I've been using the hack that allows me to choose how my NPCs spend their character points, and I've got Jayna maxed out in Herbology and Therapeutics. I have to say I'm a fan of the Revitalizer. It requires several steps to produce, but the components are not particularly expensive or hard to find. As far as I can tell, it gives +2 to all stats and it lasts for a long time. Long enough that I made it all the way through the Dredge before it expired. It's quite feasible to dose all your NPCs with Revitalizers at the start of a each "dungeon."

FWIW, my next tech character is going to be a Dwarf grenadier.

 

I hear what you are saying, though if you can overcome the supply problems the mechanized rifle is a very good weapon. I forgot about it in my initial post. The mechanized gun bothers me for the same reason that Droch's Warbringer does; it is very good but it is very easy to acquire and you don't need a lot of gunsmithy ranks to build it. If you recruit Vollinger you don't need gunsmithy at all. It doesn't even require high strength to use.

Personally I think the mechanized gun would be more balanced if it was merely a faster repeating rifle with the same ammo consumption and damage, but faster speed and a slightly higher MSR.

I was wondering, can you stack the revitalizer boost with the other therapeutics items?

 

You have a point with the reanimator there.

As for the Elephant Gun, indeed, I can even imagine how the schematic would look like, more or less:

"[Vendigrothian gibberish]
While you have never heard about anything like one of the required ingredients, judging from the description a standard Elephant Gun should do wonders as well."

I can do nothing but agree with you there, sir. Especially the critical fail bonus for old Mary would be a nice touch.

Actually, it works exactly like it appears on paper. Assuming what you have on paper is the weapon's Average Damage per Action Point and Average Damage per Ammo Unit values, that is.

As far as AvD/AP goes, it hits over 50% harder than Droch's Warbringer and is second only to the Levered Machine Gun, but it's AvD/AmU is second from the bottom of all guns, bested even by an Old Flintlock Pistol, superior only to the Schreck's Pistol.

In conclusion, the gun is useless as a main weapon, but just perfect for those special occasions when you need to deal as much damage as possible at all means necessary. Resistant armor destroying enemies would be a good example, I suppose.

A fair point. If that's the tactic one uses, I'd say the wisest solution would be carrying around two guns - one (the Looking Glass Rifle) to shoot enemies from a distance in the first round and a second (whatever gun with the highest AvD/AP and most reasonable AvD/AmU you can get, the Hand Cannon in the early game, for example) to show them true pain when they get close enough.

 

Good question. I'll test it, but my hunch would be no. For one thing, the Revitalizer is made by combining the Mind Marvel (which gives a +2 bonus to all mental stats) and the Energizer (which gives a +2 bonus to all physical stats). It would be sort of like taking two Revitalizers and expecting the bonuses to stack.

Still, considering how cheap Revitalizers are to produce, they're well worth it.

Have you tried it? Because I tried cleaning out the sewers with it once, and gave up about one-third of the way through. I started with a stockpile of about 2500 rounds, and quickly found myself going bankrupt from the constant need to buy more and more ammo.

A minimum starting ammo load with the MR is probably 500 rounds. A good gunslinger will be plowing through 24 or 30 rounds per turn -- possibly more. You've got about 15 combat turns worth of ammo starting with 500. You can buy 4-5 cans of saltpeter each day in Tarant, which will give you 100-120 rounds at a cost of roughly 140-175 gold. The rest you have to buy full price: generally 400 coins per 100 rounds, and you can get how much full price ammo each day? 400 rounds in all the shops maybe? You're blowing through roughly 1800 coins worth of ammo in roughly 15 combat turns, and that's all the ammo you can get in one day of shopping. You'll have to spend a week doing nothing but buying saltpeter if you want to make all your own ammo for 15 combat rounds. What if you want to travel to Quintarra? There are no bullets available there at all, so you'll have to take at least 2000 rounds along with you, and you'll be lucky if you make it through the pass with some to spare.

And that's assuming no one else in your party is using bullets.

It's possible, just not very fun.

The paper doesn't tell you you'll be penniless from buying bullets after a few days.

That would work if you want to lug it around all the time. The Magick side, however, doesn't have anything resembling that kind of limitation on, say, Disintegrate, which is cheaper, lighter, more powerful, reusable, and can't be dodged.

If things worked more realistically, the LGR would actually have a penalty to-hit at close range.

I'm currently using the Elephant Gun, and I think it's a very solid choice. It lacks range, but it hits pretty hard and consumes ammo at an acceptable rate.

The Tesla Rod also seems to be a good choice as long as you can make your own charges (which are vastly cheaper than bullets, interestingly). Electrolyte solution can be hard to find, but it's half the price of saltpeter and each unit makes 50 charges compared with 20 for bullets.

I've picked up Sebastian, so as soon as he can make me a fire-thingy I'll be giving the flamethrower a try. I'm trying to make all the firearms NPCs in my party use different types of ammo.

P.S. 8)

Amazingly the Therapeutics inventions -do in fact stack- their bonuses!

What this means is that a Doctorate in Therapeutics can give you +6 STR, +6 DEX, +6 PER, and +4 to all the other stats. Not only can you stack the Mind Marvel and the Energizer with the Revitalizer, you can stack the earlier elixirs on top too. Look at the schematics under Therapeutics...all seven of them stack together!

The only limitation seems to be that you can't use two of the same one. For example, if you use two Revitalizers, the second one will reset the bonuses to zero.

Really the only problem will be finding enough ingredients to keep up your supply. Nerve Pills and thermometers aren't hard to find, but you can't go out and buy 20 of them at once, either.

 

Speaking as somebody who would like his current character to have a Tesla Gun but doesn't want to use the LGR you can steal in Ashbury as a component, I'm very happy that it won't take one more CP to get the LGR schematic.

Actually, considering that I foolishly wasted points on Charisma in order to recruit followers to make stuff for me instead of focusing more on my own tech skills, the current version of the Gunsmithy discipline is kind of bumming me out. I need at least two more LGRs (to make a Long Range Pistol for Sebastian and at least one Tesla Gun) and I'm at level 38 on moderate difficulty. Getting the last CP I need is going to be a huge pain in the butt.

I could finally make the tedious overland trek to T'sen Ang, I suppose, but that would be an easier journey if I could use the gear I want to make.

If it was up to me, the Repeating Rifle would be a learned schematic and the LGR would be the fourth one in the discipline (right after the Hushed Revolver).

But that might just be because I don't see the Repeating Rifle as having any value other than as a component for other stuff. Or it could be the frustration talking.

As an aside, this character is the first I've played as who ever made a Tesla Rod. I can see why people like it. But at the same time, I don't know if it's really enough better than a LGR (damage-wise) to justify making you get a doctorate in Electrical in order to use the thing. Still... it's neat having a tech weapon that's comparable to the Lightning spell. Even if it just looks like a Tesla Coil on the end of a mop handle.

 

Yes, a long time ago. The ammo consumption is indeed ridiculous, perhaps too much so. That said, I didn't say it wouldn't be ridiculous. Again, if[ you are a really patient player you could get a lot of ammo and distribute it amongst your followers. It helps if you have a way of generated income each day. Having the ability to make eye gear and/or explosive grenades would be extremely helpful in this regard.

Truly, the ammo costs might kill the fun, though I think the tactic Muro suggested has weight. Magnus and Sogg are easily picked up and they can carry a lot. I say give them the mechanized gun and if a situation arises in which you need something dead quickly... give it a try. I'm never tried that tactic myself. Admittedly the last time I used it was back when I had a custom proto for it that changed the ammo-consumption down to one. Cheating!

I'm better than that now though.

I still say that it is, in some ways, too good. I'd be for lowering the ammo count and damage considering how easy the weapon is to acquire.

You don't gain experience points when you use disintegrate, do you? That spell is definitely a bit broken. I wonder, would it be possible to script it to instead of doing 30,000 damage to only do damage equal to your max HP? That way magick resistance would directly counter disintegrate. If you have even just 5% magic resistance it won't kill you outright if you have full HP. In that way the spell would still be powerful and useful against most enemies but not to such an insane degree.

The Tesla Rod also seems to be a good choice as long as you can make your own charges (which are vastly cheaper than bullets, interestingly). Electrolyte solution can be hard to find, but it's half the price of saltpeter and each unit makes 50 charges compared with 20 for bullets.

Incredible! I'm definitely using this on my next character.

 

May I ask which hack does that UniversalWolf? It would be awesome to not have Virgil spend points on Pick lock or even better, I can get Zen Virgil (as Muro called him) back!

 

If you have Arcanun you can easily do this yourself. You can find Arcanun in the downloads section here.

There is a mess file you need to edit... let me look up which one: ah yes, gamelevel.mes

It contains all of the auto-level schemes in the game, including for the followers. It isn't hard to do once you figure out how it works.

For example this is Magnus' scheme: {Melee 4, Smithy 1, ST 9, Mechanical 1, CN 9, Dodge 4, MaxHPS 50, Melee 8, Smithy 2, ST 10, Mechanical 2, CN 10, Dodge 8, MaxHPS 60, Melee 12, Smithy 3, ST 11, Mechanical 3, CN 11, Dodge 12, MaxHPS 82, Smithy 4, ST 12, Mechanical 4, CN 12, MaxHPS 100, Melee 16, ST 13, CN 13, Dodge 16, MaxHPS 120, Melee 20, ST 14, CN 14, Dodge 20, MaxHPS 130, ST 15, CN 15, MaxHPS 145, ST 16, CN 16, MaxHPS 160, ST 17, CN 17, MaxHPS 175, ST 18, CN 18, MaxHPS 190, ST 19, CN 19, MaxHPS 210, ST 20, CN 20, MaxHPS 400}

I highlighted his final ranks of smithy and mechanical. You'll notice that nowhere in his scheme is he told to raise his intelligence. That's because this happens automatically when Magnus is told to buy a tech degree. As he levels up he will put points into intelligence until he attains the amount required to purchase the next smithy/mechanical schematic.

So if you alter his scheme, like so: {Melee 4, Smithy 1, ST 9, Mechanical 1, CN 9, Dodge 4, MaxHPS 50, Melee 8, Smithy 2, ST 10, Mechanical 2, CN 10, Dodge 8, MaxHPS 60, Melee 12, Smithy 3, ST 11, Mechanical 3, CN 11, Dodge 12, MaxHPS 82, Smithy 4, ST 12, Mechanical 4, CN 12, MaxHPS 100, Melee 16, ST 13, CN 13, Dodge 16, Smithy 5, Mechanical 5, MaxHPS 120, Melee 20, ST 14, CN 14, Dodge 20, MaxHPS 130, ST 15, CN 15, MaxHPS 145, ST 16, CN 16, MaxHPS 160, ST 17, CN 17, MaxHPS 175, ST 18, CN 18, MaxHPS 190, ST 19, CN 19, MaxHPS 210, ST 20, CN 20, MaxHPS 400}

He will now raise his intelligence to 15 after dodge reaches 16 and then purchase the fifth degree in Smithy and Mechanical.

Speaking of altering followers, there is another mes file, aiparameters (IIRC) that lets you change the rules for them to join you. For example you can make Geoffrey or Torian follow a good character. Of-course this can cause some minor problems. For example if you recruit Torian this way and you have Magnus in your party then if you tell Magnus to wait and then ask him to join again he will make you choose between he or Torian.

 

Splendid! Thank you! Will try it right now.

 

It doesn't? It does tell you is that the Mechanized Gun deals 2,583 Average Damage per Ammo Unit. What you're saying is a simple conclusion resulting from that value.

Lugging stuff around is what tech is all about and what magick isn't.

Also, as Langolier said, carrying around weapons for special occasions is what followers are for.

cheaper - Should casting spells cost coins?
lighter - Should knowing spells weigh?
more powerful - Define "powerful".
reusable - In what way is Disintegrate more reusable than the Mechanized Gun?
can't be dodged - By logic, bullets shouldn't be possible to be dodged at all. The fact that they are is a flaw in design.

Sounds reasonable. That's how they handled the Scoped Hunting Rifle in Fallout 2 - significantly raised To Hit at long range and significantly lowered To Hit at close range. A good and logical solution, I'd say.

While I already said that the Looking Glass Rifle should stay where it is for different reasons, I feel obliged to point out that your argument is fueled by caring about current convenience rather than game balance.

You don't see the fairly powerful Repeater Rifle as having any value, as opposed to the hardly working and laughably weak Hushed Revolver?

Actually, you do gain the full amount of XPs the enemy has to offer.

The only exception were the 100% electrical resistant foes in pre-UAP, because you didn't technically kill nor harm them while disintegrating.

Should the power of one's Disintegrate really be dependent on his physical strength?

The solution you're suggesting seems more fitting for the underpowered Quench Life, if you'd ask me. "Drain the life forces of the target, bot no more than you yourself possess".

Let's call such a situation an indirect order. As opposed to, say, investing in strength, which is ordered by that scheme directly.

So, that means boosting those stats of followers (with chems, magickal potions or equipment) which they would normally invest in when their scheme indirectly orders them to (while not doing so directly) would speed up the whole scheme, doesn't it?

Why? Does Magnus refuse to travel with evil followers? If so, simply telling Torian Kel to wait, rejoining Magnus and then rejoining Torian Kel would solve the problem.