Remembrance on 9/11

I realize many of you are cynical and even hostile to remembering those that died on 9/11...however I'd like this thread to serve as proof positive that some of us here do remember that day, and offer our prayers and condolences to the families and friends of all those affected exactly 1 year ago today.

If you would like to remember those lost, feel free to add your words of kindness here.

If you'd like to be sarcastic, angry and derisive, please do so on another thread.

Thanks.

 

I'd not normally contribute to something like this, but it upsets me that so many people are so emotionally crippled that they can't feel anything other than irritation when someone interrupts their TV to remind them that some people are not as lucky as them (I normally switch off those programs as soon as I see them, since I already feel sympathy and don't need/want anyone tugging my heart strings). So I'd like to be a bit more demonstrative about my sympathy this time, rather than keeping it to myself, as I normally would.

When I think of those people on the planes, and how terrified they must have been, it makes me glad I've not had to go through something like that and I hope noone has to go through it ever again.

When I think of the people in the building, I think of all the times I've been in high rise buildings (I've worked in a few minor ones) and I wonder how I would react if something similar happened.

When I think about all the people that died trying to save them, I can't help being made to feel inadequate, because I sincerely doubt I would have the courage to put my own life in such obvious danger to try to save a stranger whose life is almost certainly unsavable.

When I think of all the poeple who now live with grief and frustration at the lack of justice, and the people who live with the fear it could happen to them, it makes me wonder what kind of world we're in. Then I see people who don't have the depth of character to face the situation, and lash out in one way or another, and it depresses me even more.

Like I said, I normally wouldn't see the point in posting in a thread like this. I'd probably think of it as unnecessary sharing of private emotions with strangers. At the moment though, seeing your post made me REALLY glad the Arcanum-playing community includes at least one person who has a heart.

 

Well what can you say after that except Amen

 

Well said, Sheriff.

 

Thanks Sheriff...it at least makes two of us, then.

Not to say that an outpouring of emotion is what is required, either. Insincerity helps noone, and indeed - a public show of what should be private feelings belittles the sentiment altogether. - However, US-citizen or no, what happened a year ago today was unique in its tragedy the world over, and it deserves to be remembered - even if the only reason be so that it doesn't happen again.

Regardless of where you are on this planet, and regardless of how many idiots are trying to commercialize (and thereby trivialize) the impact of it all - this really did happen. Thousands of people died - for reasons that are still of great debate, and no one knows for sure exactly WHY. (Even if many do have their conjectures).

It's easy for most people - especially those far from the US and not affected directly by the event - to not fully understand the reality of what occured, the devastation and tragedy, and the needlessness of it all. It's even easier, then, for those folks to feel contempt and annoyance at all the incessant whining and sensationalizing that has happened since. To them I say - turn off the TV, take a step back, and put yourself in the shoes of the victims that day. Forget the marketing ploys and disingenuousness and just reflect on what you have, and what you could have lost - if it was you, or your loved one, that day. All the rest was, is, and will be cheap commercial filler. Don't let THAT make you forget your humanity.

MOST of us HAVE moved on with our lives and not dwelled on it every waking moment. We're not responsible for the media's or the politicians' actions since that day. It's unfair to throw the baby out with the bathwater and dismiss everything as "those stupid americans and their endless self-important droning."

Regardless of nationality or ideology, we are human, we are mortal. Human life should be valued and respected - no matter where or who you are. Obviously 9/11/01 was not the only time in history where life was destroyed en mass - unfortunately it likely won't be the last - but it is upon us here, and now, to try to invoke whatever human empathy is left within us, and not get caught up in the pervasiveness of the anti-american sentiment.

...well I'll get off my soap-box now. Hopefully I've made some of you think.

Thanks again Sheriff...I guess you inspired me.

 

Now, normally I'd respect your request above, but I'd just like to point something out - September 11 was only unique in that a plane was used to bring down a building. Even then it's only a variant of kamikaze techniques. I'd hardly say that terrorist attacks are new - they happen at least once a week in the Middle East, and yet we don't have 10 television specials in a single day to cover each and every one of those tragedies do we? Admittedly, there was a high body count, but, let's face it, it was a one off attack. Directly and indirectly, the US government kills many more people each year, in (if we were being honest) what could only be termed terrorist actions. Hypocrites really piss me off. Right now, the US government is the biggest hyprocrite of all.

That's pretty easy - it all comes down to hate. They hated the US, so they attacked it. What other reason could there be?

Does that mean that because it's the USA it's more of a tragedy? Think of what happens all over the world each day, and you'll realise that what happened was a drop in the bucket. That sort of thing happens often in poorer countries (although each occurrence isn't as large as Sept 11, they do add up very quickly). If we took the time to think about every single terrorist incident in the world, we might as well forget about wearing clothes other than black ones.

 

Yes, shit happens all over the world. BFD. Third world countries happily butcher each other without a second thought.

But the events of last 9/11 were on a completely different scale, and to say otherwise is just plain ignorant. My heart goes out to the families of the victims, and if that makes me somehow less in the eyes of the more cynical, then so be it. I feel for the man who was speaking to his son via cell phone when he died - the last words he heard from his son: "Oh God, the ceiling is collapsing." For those of you who scoff at these acts of inhumanity, think how different you might feel if that were you and your son. Or if you came home to a final message from your spouse on your answering machine that said "I love you. I need you to be strong and to take care of my father. Bye."

It's easy for people to trivialize things - hell, it's expected. Especially when these events are far from you. But truthfully: Jarinor, you live in Australia: how close have you actually been to any of "That sort of thing <that> happens often in poorer countries"? If the same sort of thing happened to the Sydney Opera House....or Centrepoint Tower.... or.... Hell, does Australia even have any other landmarks?... I would be willing to bet your viewpoint would be different.

It doesn't matter that it was New York. The fact is, it could have been Paris, or London, or any of a vast number of places. The simple and basic fact that seems to be overlooked in the mountains of cynicism is that a huge number of completely innocent people were killed. It is to them that some small measure of human decency is due. Hate the U.S. if you want. Say what you will about the government. But don't denigrate the memory of people who simply did not deserve to die that day.

Find me a government that doesn't appear hypocritical. If you can name one, you're oblivious to reality. It's the nature of the beast.

This is an inane statement, and one I would love to see you try to back up with some kind of facts. Don't get me wrong - the government is far from perfect... but to compare its actions with terrorism is just asinine. And lest it be still forgotten, let me reiterate: the victims in New York were NOT the US government. They were people doing their jobs, from waiters to firemen.

Something else to think about, to use your words a bit: Directly and indirectly, the US goverment saves many thousands of people each year, in (if we were being honest) what could only be termed humanitarian actions.

You can view the US government from any of myriad angles. And any can be defended with selective data. None of which rationalize the events of a year ago.

 

burn

i can see flaming happening on this thread.

Jarinor its the whole 'if a plane or train crashes its news worthy but if a car crashes its just the same old thing'.

Most western countires had someone die in the twin towers and its a shame it had to happen but as long as poeple know why it happened and no, its not just because they were evil, then its a good thing but i believe the facts will be lost in sentiment.

 

Getting back to the heart of things...

The discussion did get a little controversial, but everyone brought good points of view to the table.

Just one last thing for the record - Jarinor - I did ackowledge that senseless destruction of life has happened throughout history, and will unfortunatelyhappen again in the future. (I of course know - and assumed it was implied - that it is happening now, as well, all over the world.) Luchaire put it best though - this event is somewhat unique, and even if it wasn't. People died. Families were hit hard and deep. It's more than just "a plane hit a building woop dee doo"

Anyway, to get back to the heart of things:

So far no re-visited terrorism. Things seem to be going well. From what I've seen today (Although admittedly I am living in the US - so things are close to home for everyone) people I've seen today seem to not let the commercialism of the last year detract from the gravity of it all. People have been thoughtful, reflectant, and reserved. I am glad of this. No inane flag-waving, no anger, no hawkishness....just acceptance, and a resolve for peace.

Despite the bile of a few, the maturity of the majority (around here, locally, and also of a few on this forum) heartens me. I once again offer my empathy to the families of the victims, and am grateful that I was not directly affected. It could have easily been any of us, anywhere.

 

I refuse! The WTC attack was a tragedy, and US of course didn’t “deserve� it. I don’t doubt or condemn your feelings. But if the remembrance is to escape the

It should be way more powerful. Add the 500,000 Iraq children and 2.3 million Afghans killed by the US. Add the URSS killings in Afghanistan. Try to see a more complete picture. Understand the mind of terrorists and military. “Plain Hate� is too easy an explanation.
If you limit yourself to the compassion to the victims of just one fragment of the whole tragedy, you will end following the saying: “Hell is full of good intentions�.

Edit addendum: I have just seem your second attempt, Sheriff Fatman. I disagree with you. Jarinor and I were the one’s who “disrespected� Windmills’ thread. We both said “get a grip!�. Like we would say to anyone, who after loosing a dear one, went on a suicide path. Windmills, I don’t mean this as disrespect for your feelings. But as you say you must put yourself in other people’s shoes, do this. Beware of the murderous path people are taking.

 

Senseless destruction of life did happen through history, as have memorials. Memorial monuments are all over London (and many other cities) and memorial services are all over the calendar.

What will we end up saying if we limit ourselves to feeling no compassion for anyone? How about "Earth is like Hell, but without the good intentions."

It's not even the lack of compassion that I find most strange. Desensitisation is everywhere, and a lot of people are too weak or undiscerning to resist it. What I find most strange is the lack of sympathy.

I've taken trans-atlantic planes. In fact, Lysa arrived in London from New Orleans 2 days before the attack on an AA flight. Hence I can sympathise with the vulnerability of a man on a plane.

I work in a city - just another slob in an office. My political opinions aren't anti-Arab or anti-Islam. I think you all have seen that. Hence, I can sympathise with a guy who reluctantly turns up at work as usual, maybe he's not adverse to bitching about his government. Then, some way through his normal, possibly very dull, day his world gets turned inside out and he spends the last few minutes of his life scared, confused and maybe in pain. It isn't hard for me, as an average man, to imagine and hence feel sympathy for.

I can only think that people who don't feel this kind of sympathy are either leading lives far removed from that of the average man or are blinded by a political agenda/hatred that many of the people who died had absolutely nothing to do with.

Do I feel compassion for Afghans, children or otherwise? Yes, in a vague, abstract way.

Can I sympathise with them? Yes, in that I have been a child and Afghans are just human's, like us all. Not in the same vivid, all-too-real way, though.

 

I don't ever want such a thing to happen in my country again. I do not want such a thing to happen in ANY country. I am not going to dishonor this thread the way some have, even though asked not to....

I just simply don't want to see this kind of madness as I feel there is no reason for it, I do not feel that this level of hate can ever be truly justified......

I morn for those who passed but I also know that they will never be forgotten...

 

The difference is, people in Third World countries can't afford mobile phones, so they can't say goodbye to the people they want to just before they die.

Pretty close actually. I've lived in the Middle East for several years, and one of the places was on the verge of a rebellion at one point. Police and military units were being firebombed by the peasants in certain regions - and this country was only half an hours drive big (in that you could drive from one end to the other in half an hour) so you can imagine that at time I was concerned. My Dad is currently in the Middle East himself - in that same country as a matter of fact. It's cooled down there though.

What the fuck is the Centrepoint Tower? I've never heard of it. Must be down in Sydney. Speaking of Sydney, would you please take out the Opera House? I couldn't give two shits about it, and no one lives there.

We got us the Big Pineapple! I have fond childhood memories of that place (but I have no idea where it is), so I'd be pretty upset in a nostalgic, sentimental way if it was destroyed. I wouldn't cry over it though.

I hope you feel that way about the thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens that the USA has killed with their bombs. Are they any less deserving of our sympathy? Why does America deserve more? That's my point.

Okay, I'll give you that one .

So are the citizens of the governments which the USA has installed in many countries, simply because they are friendly to the USA, and not because they are popular or even good. Many of them are corrupt beyond belief, and torture their citizens, and stay in power only through virtue of the USA backing them with military equipment and training. Those governments torture innocent people and kill them, simply so they can stay in power by putting fear into the populace.

Actually, I'd give more of the credit to the UN. But yes, they do save lives. But only in the countries which they deem worthy of saving, which are few and far between.

 

So who should we be helping those we consider UN-worthy? Who's ass should we be kissing to get any understanding from you? I think we help as many as we can.

Frankly with all the homeless and starving in our own country I think we need to be doing more for US first. For every starving baby we feed in another country I can show you an equally starving child in my own country but I guess that's not good enough huh?

Maybe we should all just starve and die and funnel every bit of what we have into feeding Iraq..... Would that get US on your good list? :roll:

See this is exactly the point of view that makes me crazy. That you can even sit there with a straight face and equate one with the other makes it easy for me to understand the term "Twilight zone"

This is what it sounds like to me:

"I really don't care that Iraqs leadership will not obey international law, I don't care that it is their govenments refusal to obey the Law that is placing the lives of it's people in jepordy. I am still going to hold the US accountable; because I believe that all Countries should do what they want too their neighbors and get away with it as long as none of it's own people get attacked in return, let them kill who they want. As a matter of fact not only that but they would be victims just as much as some poor Joe going to work deserves to get a building blown from under himself and 2000 plus other people ."

That to me is INSANE, that you can calmly and impassively make a judgement like that.

The Iraqi people are not victims of US policy they are victims of IRAQI policy.

The victims of 9/11 should not have been victims of ANYONES policies (They were not all American nor did they all represent any political group, they were simply people trying to go to work), if you can not see that very big differance then you need much more help then you may believe that I do.


The following quote comes from an Australian newscast regarding 9/11:

Now according to your logic I would assume that you hope these same statements are made whenever we bombed an Iraqi base for firing on our planes or when and if we invade Iraq. Well all I can say is Thank God your countries leader don't think as you do and can see the differance.

 

poo poo

You are a real smuck Hel Khat. This is the reason i dont care so much about the twin towers falling because the likes of you only care about you and your country people. This is why you lose support because some Americans and it's enough Americans, can only see themselves in this world.

Good luck against the Axis of evil and Iraq. hope no other buildings fall down in USA.

As the Clash said. "Im so bored of U, SA"

 

If IRAQ had not invaded KUWAIT we would not even be having this discussion now would we? or did the US some how force Saddam to do that also????????????????????????????????

And if you didn't have your nose so far up Saddam's ass then maybe you could smell the reality. I care about the Iraqi people but I also care about what they let their leaders do and to separate one from the other is not possible at this time. Saddam is using his people as a sheild while he developes his weapons and we are supposed to just give in and "hope" and "pray" that history does not repeat itself .

If I take a shit on your lawn are you gonna blame me or my dad for trying to stop me? It's the same thing Saddam has shit on everyone around him including his own people and you want to blame US for trying to stop it....

 

bored

Saddam has made peace with the area now. Yes i know he's attacked his allies in the past but i can't see it happening again as the world has changed alot.
You are right though Hel Khat. My nose is up Saddams ass but i see that as the lesser evil these days. Whose ass is your nose up, hmmm i wonder where it could be. Wherever could Hel Khats nose be a be.

 

Civilians are civilians, Hel Khat. Where they come from is irrelevant - they are still CIVILIANS! What more can I say to get this point through the jingoistic filter in your head? What makes Iraqi civilians LESS deserving of pity? What makes USA ones MORE deserving? You seem to equate the 'goodness' of a government with the 'goodness' of its citizens.

You could say almost exactly the same thing about the USA. You guys seem perfectly happy to ignore the deaths that have resulted from the policies of the governments YOU have elected, but as soon as someone strikes back, it's like you are the purest and most innocent being on earth and you've just been sexually abused.

Another analogy is one of the schoolyard bully - the USA is the schoolyard bully who is also a favourite of the teachers (and hence rarely reprimanded) and the other countries are the ones that you bully. As soon as they stick up for themselves (figuratively speaking, not literally) it's like you are the victim, and they need to be punished for daring to insult you. That's what the USA's actions equate - the reactions of a shocked bully when his authority is challenged. Beat 'em harder.

To me it's insane that you refuse to consider the other side of the story - stop looking at the world through your hyper-jigoistic glasses and see the real fucking story.

Yes, because we all know that they imposed sanctions on necessary medical technology, supplies and training on themselves, didn't they?

No, they shouldn't have. Then again, neither should all the civilians in Israel, Palestine and all the other countries around the world. It happened though.

Oh, you've demonstrated that, FOR SURE!

When are you going to realise that they can't do jack shit about their situation there? Would YOU like to rebel against an army with no weapons of your own? I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to charge trained soldiers with automatic weapons and nothing on my side but truth, justice and the American way, which isn't even their way. The Middle Eastern regions NEED strong rulers like Saddam to keep the peace, otherwise all the ethnic groups gather and fight against each other to establish their dominance.

 

I do not support Hel Khat's extreme views, but I think you're being a huge hypocrite on this Jarinor, and just saying whatever you can to try to justify your point.

You have made it quite clear that you feel NO pity for the 9/11 victims. You joke about it and derail other peoples threads. Now you're talking about the Iraqi innocents being shown less pity. How can they be shown less pity than the zero you're offering the innocents in the USA? The only way you could show them less pity is if you went over there and personally stuck the boot in a bit.

I think you're full of shit. One minute you're talking about caring more for your dog than people who died, the next you're trying to take the moral high ground.

As far as I'm concerned you either give a shit about people or you don't. Stop trying to use the Iraqi civilians as a counter in your political arguments.