Military Tribunals

Duh...

All these countries are getting help, but most of them have strict regimes that don`t allow much outside meddling.

Besides: It`s a great idea, and a good excuse to claim one "cares", to help the countries, but what kind of human are you if you won`t help an individual who obviously need your help...

Empathise...

- Zen

 

i do care it's just that i feel like boat people are using us, which i can't blame them for but i still don't like it.

 

I care for people driven from their home, or who need a place of safety to live in, but i think they have to realize that not everything is free. After living here for a while, immigrants should get full rights as citizens, but until then, they do not get the same rights as the rest of us.

 

If a refugee applies for asylum or a citizenship I personally think they should get full rights the second the applications are granted...

Really: If you won`t help others how can you expect to get any help yourself should the need arise? What are you so afraid of?

- zen

 

yes i totaly agree with you about that WHEN they are given citizenship but i've seen news reports where boat people explained the reason why they had started riots was because they hadn't been given automatic citizenship

 

Well, as you say "people are idiots" and this applies to every group of people disregarding race, ethnic and religion, but not everyone are idiots. And what scares me is that people like you tend to emphasize on such negative comments and/or incidents and then automatically applie your thoughts to every memeber of a certain group of people!

If you HAVE to judge someone, then at least they deserve to be judged on basis of their own actions...

- Zen

 

really whats wrong with letting the boat people stay a few months to sought the situation out. if your worried about the money issue put politicle pressure on there counry of origin.
of course you could just send them into the desert. it would be there very own fallout. surviving out there while bing hunted by the farmers. who knows, they might find dogmeat out there too.

 

The problem is that most don't stay for a few months, and many are a strain on the system, taking our money and tax dollars, without learning our culture or language.

Many don't become citizens or do anything productive with their lives. However, immigration, at least legal immigration, should continue, for it was the basis for the USA and Austrailia.

The debate is not whether they be able to come, i believe they should, but should they get immediate rights of citizenship, and be equals under the law with citizens, who pay taxes and have lived and worked on the land.

Americans fall under American laws and get American rights. Immigrants have to earn the rights after working for them, learning the language, and making a commitment to America.

I know there are people who don't give a rat's ass about their country, like that traitor who went to Afghanistan, and those people don't deserve the freedoms they get, but most people care about their country, know the language and customs, vote, and do their civic duties. If you work at being a citizen, then you should be entitled to the rights of citizens, and not just anyone who comes off a boat.

 

I know I said I'd not post again, but sitting quietly by is not somwthing I'm good at.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Zen and carlstar and in fact, I'm bloody glad they turned up to gladden my heart with their compassionate attitudes.

So far, CV, I've found myself in disagreement with a whole lot of what you say, but this is possibly the strongest yet.

Most immigrants end up doing the shitty jobs that noone else wants to do, for less money than they deserve. They live in poverty in the US that happens to be far preferable than poverty in their country of origin.

Will you do me a favour and stop talking about these unfortunate people as if they're some kind of enemy bent on invading your country to live a life of privilege and wealth?

I know there's a lot of poverty in the US, and immigration often gets made the scapegoat, but US citizens are NOT more hard-working than immigrants (or less, they're still just people), NOT more deserving of wealth (you pretty much admitted you've done nothing worthwhile to contribute to your country's greatness), NOT less inclined to work, self-improvement or tax paying.

They're just people, like you and me, no matter how much you choose to set yourself above them. Who knows, many of them may actually be contributing more to the US economy and culture than you are.

On the subject of "learning your culture" I suggest you have a little read of some anthropological texts if you want to understand cultural dynamism. In essence, cultural exchange is good for strength and growth, and cultural "purity" leads to stagnation and eventual supercedence by stronger cultures.

 

CV- your from the usa. what is that the richest country in the world. how can you justify saying what you said. a strain on the country.
perhaps if the usa stops making a conventional army that is piontless in todays wars (unless the usa intend to invade europe, china or russia) and instead show compassion to people who risk there lives to come to your country. who knows, show a soft and caring side and people might stop harbouring hatred towards the country. hell they might stop burning the american flag. im not going to say what else.
a little caring can go a long way. so dose car but thats irrelevant.

 

yes i understand what you're all saying and i agree with you, the point i was making about this particular group was that they EXPECTED to be given AUTOMATIC citizenship and when they were denied they started rioting. now i fully and 100% endorse immigration (only an idiot or racist mother fucker wouldn't) but this group was here illegaly and didn't like that they were denied citizenship and resorted to violence which i don't agree with.

 

Okay, now you've done it - I've had to resort to fact! Ugh!

The constant use of the riots as incidents made me wonder if my natural inclination towards compassion was blinding me towards some aspects of the situation mrnobodie is talking about.

For a fairly objective opinion, I went to the BBC. They have a good rep as a source, and no obvious bias in this. Here is a report describing the riots I found.

Some points that occur to me after reading the report:

• Australia classfies them as illegal immigrants, but they classify themselves as asylum seekers
• They were rioting about conditions in the detention centre, not about not being granted automatic citizenship.

Now, by all means continue the discussion, but the next person who makes me resort to fact is going to get a railroad spike up their bum!

 

i'm not certain sheriff if it was those particular riots (there were a couple i think) but i remember seeing a brief news report where some detainees said they felt they "deserved" citizenship and it was thier use of violence that i particulary don't agree with, there HAS to be a better way i hope, if not than we're all in worse shape than i thought possible, must we always resort to violence/war to solve problems.

now we're argueing about a very minor point here and it's not getting us anywhere, can we please just drop it and move on

 

I've kept silent for the most part, and I'm not going to take any sides now. I'm just going to present some facts of which I am intimately aware.

I was born and raised in Miami, lived in a nice neighborhood, and it was multi-ethnic. My neighbor across the street and the lady next door were Italian. My mother taught them to speak English. We had Jewish neighbors and Catholic neighbors. Everybody got along just fine.

While I was still a child, Castro opened his prisons, allowed people to leave his country, and thousands of Cubans made their way to our shores. Not all of them were convicted criminals, but a lot of them were.

Most of the Cubans were kept in detention centers, and there were several extremely violent riots.

When the Cubans were realeased into society, many of them went on to become successful and respected members of the community. Most of the government of Miami is Hispanic or Cuban. Today, if you don't speak Spanish, there are major portions of Miami where you will be helpless. And, no, a great majority of the refugees have never learned to speak English.

Many of the Cubans contributed to America, but many of them continued on the criminal path they had followed in Cuba.
The crime rate in Miami skyrocketed.
These are facts.

Later, the Haitians arrived on our shores.
Many of them had been doctors and well-to-do persons in their native land. They were often the best students and the most patriotic Americans I have ever met.

But many of the Haitians were unschooled and unskilled. A neighborhood near mine eventually became known as "Little Haiti", because so many immigrants had moved there. They couldn't get any good jobs, so they lived 12 to a house. They couldn't afford to keep up the houses and property values tumbled.
My home was broken into three times. It had never been broken into before.
People standing outside the grocery store across the street from my house tried to sell me drugs. That had never happened before.
Finally, I had to move, because my neighborhood became overrun with crime and drugs. It became another "Little Haiti".

Today, if you rent a car at the Miami International Airport, they will warn you of several areas to stay away from, because you WILL be carjacked and killed there. "Little Haiti" is one of those areas, as is the neighborhood I grew up in. I can't even visit the house I grew up in anymore, because a white man would be shot on sight.
It's happened several times.

I'm not making any judgements here. I'm just telling you my experience with some refugees.
Some of them were great. I even dated a Haitian girl for about a year. But some experiences were awful.

 

Wow, that's pretty bad. But I agree with the facts. They are pretty damn straight.

 

Feldon, those experiences seem pretty extreme, and I can only hope you feel that such close association with other cultures has enriched your own, rather than threatening it.

Naturally, where there is poverty there is crime. Also naturally, turning the entire population of a prison out into society (any society) would result in a crime wave.

We've had similar situations here. After the Bosnian conflict a years back, many hundreds of thousands of Bosnians came to Britain seeking refuge. They arrived in Dover, which is our nearest port to Europe. Dover is in Kent. I grew up in a poor part of Kent (not near Dover, though).

The refugees and asylum seekers were housed in 'sheltered accomodation'. In the UK, that euphamism and similar phrases are used to describe the cheapest housing available.

In this case, these included high rise flats (I believe often called 'projects' in the USA) in the neighbourhood in which I was born and riased and which my family still live.

Some of the refugees had links to Balkan organised crime syndicates. Many were fresh from the horrors of the war and suffering the social problems such things often breed. Even the least problematic of the regugees spoke very little English (making them sound stupid or uneducated) and had no financial backing, so had no route out of their situation. Crime in the area went straight through the roof.

One of my brothers lived in the same high rise as a large group of them and grew to hate them, partly through crime, but partly because that area had always bred racism like a dog breeds flees. Before the refugees arrived, it was blacks and asians who were mainly targeted, depsite the fact there are hardly any blacks living in that area.

Nothing really ever got done about it. As the refugees are learning English and therefore gaining alternative means of employment, some of the worst is now subsiding, but no official effort has been made. It's a poor area and there's as much money paid out in welfare as there is claimed in tax. It's not a place considered to be a priority in terms of government spending, since the government has always used "dumping grounds" as a strategy (i.e. sticking all the problems in one place means other people don't have to witness it).

I currently live in one of the most expensive areas of London and work with many people who attended very exclusive schools as children, but I spend a fair amount of time in the old area, visiting family and stuff.

I KNOW the problems in the area got worse when the refugees arrived. I know they were asking for help without offering anything up front, and that many of them have turned to crime after being given "help".

However, I believe there is a very complex set of issues causing the situation, very few of which have anything to do with the refugees themselves. I also believe that in their place I may well make the same decisions they make.

This causes me to feel that we should be doing more to help them, not be grudging about the aid we offer, and look more intelligently at the the real causes of the situation, with a view to producing a real solution.

 

I don't feel bitter about the situation, and I don't blame the refugees for the conditions in Miami. How can you blame someone for trying to make a better life for himself?
The government simply wasn't prepared for the two immigrations/exodi I mentioned, and people fell through the cracks.
It cost me, but I don't blame anyone. I would have done the same thing in their situation.
And it certainly broadened my mind. Before I left Miami, my two best friends were Black. We used to drive into the most dangerous parts of the city, and I was never threatened, because I was accepted, because I was accepting.

Once, my friends and I were driving along, I was in the back seat, they were in the front, and the car was filled with pot smoke.
An officer pulled us over. My friend rolled down the window and the cop took a step back. He looked into the car and made us all get out. We were frisked, and the cop took our nickel-bag. Then he let us go. But before he did he laid a story on us about two black guys and a white guy robbing a bank. That's why he stopped us.
Yeah, right! He stopped us because he thought I was being kidnapped. Or because of all the smoke. But I guarantee you, if I hadn't ben along, my friends would have been in jail. And they knew it, too.
Before he let us go, the officer leaned into the passenger window and said, "Look, my kid brother smokes this stuff. I don't really have a problem with it. Just keep the windows down from now on."
My point? Hell, I don't know.

 

very cheech and chong.
but really. the whole drug, crime thing. i think its more to do with the fact its not the 50s anymore. social experiments of the 60s and 70s failed. just look at those projects for instance. they are already taking them down in places.
i wonder if the american natives saw white man as an immigrant or is that differrent cause it was a long time ago and they were white. taking the land and changing so much and bringing in diesease is kind of like the drug, crime thing today.
no i cant say that cause its against progress.

 

Suggestions for improving upon the American
immigration system:

In order to maintain a stable influx of immigrants as
our constitution provides we must, for the safety of
our nation do all in our power to control the entry of
those seeking the honor of becoming US citizens.

I would propose that all states be given the right to
apply to serve a term as "port of entry" (POE) state.
Applying states would be nominated by the President
and elected by congress. Applying States deemed
eligible would qualify by being among the least
populated in the country at the time. The term served
as "port of entry" state would last until the said
state becomes one of the top 25 populate states in the
country.

During the time served as "port of entry" (POE) the
elected state would qualify for additional government
and federal support to improve the security and
infrastructure of the states immigrant related support
structure. During this time the POE would be
responsible for 70 to 80% of all immigrant arrivals to
this country (established POE's able to handle
considerable work loads would stay in tact but the
work load would be reduced to handle the remaining 20
to 30% divided among them. New York, Florida, Texas,
Nevada and California would serve as permanent hosts
to a greatly reduced number of immigrants, and as such
would qualify for a reduced amount federal support on
a permanent bases but would not be eligible to serve
as a Main POE state, due to the permanent status as
hosts.

The current POE state with the help of it's host
states would be responsible for all immigrant related
issues. All immigrants applying for permanent /
temporary resident / citizen status would have to
reside in one of these states and would not be allowed
to leave these states unless they had resided within
said state for a minimum of 5 years and have been
granted permanent citizenship. Immigrants staying
temporarily in the United States could apply for visas
that would allow them to travel between the appointed
host states but this would be under strict control
with only a certain number of moves or visits granted
per year. It would be considered a federal crime for
any immigrant to be caught in any state other then a
POE or one of it's host states.

All immigrants must agree to a complete screening and
5 year back ground check (this should be done on all
applicants considered suspect). If over the age of 5
years old they will be finger printed, photographed
and provided with an ID card which they must carry
with them at all times. (This card would contain all
pertinent information and should also contain the most
advanced in location technology available. Applicants
would have to pay for the cost of producing these ID
cards and would also pay to replace them if lost or
damaged.)
Immigrants will not be allowed to make cash based
financial transaction. The card provided to them by
the government could be used for cash "like"
transactions and they could also make purchases using
major credit card providers. Making cash purchases,
owning guns, explosives or other such weapons would be
considered a federal offence as would traveling across
state lines.

The burden of incarcerating immigrants deemed illegal
or those found to be criminal would be shared by 3 of
the host states on a permanent bases. With the
exception of the above mentioned, immigrants would
enjoy the same rights and privileges that all natural
born Americans do. After 5 years of residency and
once granted full citizenship they would have the same
exact freedoms as any other citizen.

Tourism should be handled much as it is handled today
with the exception of adding heightened security and
screening. As well as an alert system put in place to
flag those that visit in a manure deemed suspect.

 

They'd all be shot the moment they entered Montana.