Jinxed, Past and Present

"Baptists idolize john the baptist and therefore they are not Christians. They believe in the cult of the baptism."

Catholics do not believe in purgatory, Sainthood is just as plausible as the bible itself is its not a fucking culst. What the fuck is wrong with calling a priest father?

There is just as much variation amongst the "Protestant" sects of christianity. Episcolpalians are basically the same as Catholics, and have almost all of the same traditions, they just don't recognize the pope.

Its pretty fucking ignorant to decide that half of the people who worship Christ are not Christian, because they have a much richer heritage, and more traditions than the rest of "christianity."

 

While I accept that my knowledge in history in this matter is vague, though I do know that England was colonised by Britain, why else would they have had the battle of independence? And I'd definitely say they would have kept some prisoners there, as their prisons were overcrowded at the time. It was my understanding that Britain went to Australia after they got their asses kicked in America. Besides, a large number of Australians were actually settlers, planning to build lives here.

 

I am inclined to disagree with you. America was colonised to kick the shit out of and generally cull off the native population-exactly the same as Australia.

 

Sigurd's post highlights why I no longer believe - if the route to heaven can't be agreed upon by people who purportedly follow the same religion, then how much else are they wrong about?

 

Not trying to preach or anything but just because a group of old bastards that for some reason just won't die can't decide on the way to heaven doesn't mean you can't. I think its pretty silly to just take up some one else's religion with out thinking it through and maybe making some alterations of your own. Even just to make your life easier. You've got just as much reason to believe your own made up shit than christianity and no one can prove diddly-squat.

 

Actually, America was mostly colonized in the hope of finding gold, or finding a cross-contenental water route. Both of which proved to be false hopes, but by the time everyone figured that out, it was a little late.

 

I really want to fuck that hole in your avatar Xento...

 

Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of Stupid Sayings by Sleek. Listen in next week to hear Sleek say, "My dad tastes like a salted peanut."

 

That ain't true. They don't worship John, they just hold him in high regard, which all Christians do. Even so, I'm inclined to be wary of Baptists.

Yes they do. I come from a Catholic family, what'd you expect from a Sicilian/Irish-Scottish?

"The cult of the Saints" is the accepted term for the practice of praying to Saints. You'll find it in any scholarly, non-Catholic work on the subject. From the Dictionary:

Well, the first part may not be widely accepted, but the "authoritarian, charismatic leader" pretty much fits the Pope, don't you think? Of course, that's besides the point. The point is, the deification of the Saints is not found anywhere in the Bible; no, in the Bible all followers of God are called "saints."

My point is that it's against the Bible, and if the Catholics want to be called Christains, they might as well follow the Book. They don't.

I'm not familiar enough with Episcopalians to reply to this, but I can say if they are that similar to the Catholics (like the Anglicans), then I wouldn't consider them to be true followers of Christ and the Bible.

My whole point was that many Catholic traditions are not based in any way on the Bible, which is supposed to be the foundation of the faith. I think I made my point quite clearly.

 

Holy fuck man. Once again, I thought the teachings of christ were the foundation of faith? Everything, the Saints, confessionals, etc, is all based on the teachings of christ. Semantics are semantics are semantics are semantics. They worship christ, they are christian.

I don't know why you feel the need to display some form of division other than mode of worship! They don't worship saints, they look at them as a good example, as something to strive to be, they pray to them to watch over them, but people also pray to dead relatives and ask the same things. Some of these Saints did actually do some good things, not that I necessarily believe in demi-god like miracles, but either way, why do they bother you?

 

Nope. America was where they sent the "seperatists" the people who had a different religious view than the Church of England. It wasn't until after a short while that England shipped it's prisoners/criminals there. I don't feel like getting into this religious debate, cause I know there is no end to it, :roll: so I'll just state my views (I'm calling it Wylthism [y-leh-th-izm):
I believe there is a god, but what he/she/it wants, is not something for me to know, or understand. I think that we have no right to assume what god wants, because we're all guessing, god could easily believe that consuming huge amounts of donuts will get is in to Heaven, and we wouldn't know it until we get there, so I figure I'll live my life the way I wish to live it, and if I break god's rules, then I'll spend eternity in hell, if I don't, then I'll meet you in heaven.

 

I've never heard of anything like that, and we don't hold John the Baptist in any higher reguard than any of the other apostles. Maybe Roman Baptists, but not Southern.

 

where to begin?

baptists are called baptists because you have to be baptized to go to heaven.

the point of confessing your sins to a priest is not to double your shame. you can ask God for forgiveness directly at any time, and if you mean it, you will be forgiven. the point of a priest is that many people don't feel forgiven if they just pray in their minds, they need someone to tell them "you were bad, go be punished, everything's all better."

america was not an official penal colony like australia, however, before australia was discovered, a felon could have their sentence commuted if they came to america as an indentured servant. on a side note, this is what led directly to slavery in the U.S. white slaves could run away and never be found, but if all your slaves were a different color from the normal population, if they ran away you could spot them quite easily. and if you didn't allow anyone of the slave color to be free, you could always spot a runaway.

all catholics are christian. they believe in christ, therefore are christian. interestingly, all christians are catholic. the word "catholic" means universal, so catholics consider all christians to be catholic, just misguided and away from the fold.

neither sainthood or purgatory are mentioned anywhere in the bible, which is why protestants don't adhere to those beliefs. martin luther started protestantism because these and other beliefs were not mentioned in the bible, also known as the Word, or the Truth, so they should not be followed. all present day forms of non-catholic christianity descend from this point.

finally, just because religions cannot agree on God, Christ, or heaven does not mean these things are not real. example: i call my cat Nancy, my sister in law calls him Louis. doesn't make the cat any less fucking real.

anything else i need to explain to y'all ignant bastards?

 

I'm glad you obviously know what the fuck you are talking about. Oh wait, no you don't. Show me in the bible where the teachings of Jesus imply sainthood, confessionals, etc. I showed you were it don't, you show me where it do. Try to argue about things you understand, not a religion you dislike and have a hazy idea of the teachings thereof. And Catholics do worship saints, praying and making offerings to something is pretty much the definition of worship. Like I said before, don't argue about a religion you don't know about. I've studied both Protestantism and Catholicism extensively for many years, and experienced both personally.

 

BULLSHIT, I was raised catholic, we NEVER "worshipped" or "made offerings" to saints. The saints are only used as examples of how normal people can become more christ-like through absolute faith. Ask any Catholic if they're christian, guess what they'll say? YES. If you ask them if protestants are christian, I'm sure there is a percentage who would say no.

 

Obviously your family's orthodoxy was very bad, because normal Catholic conduct towards saints includes offerings and prayers. Or at least normal Italian Catholic conduct, and that is the original Catholicism, is it not?

 

Bah, Rosie stop this religious debate and come on irc already!! Getting bored out of my mind here.

 

You know, I was raised a Roman Catholic, and I'm with Sleek Jeek - I don't remember ever worshipping the saints. All the prayers were to God, not to St Peter or anything like that. Maybe you could make offerings to saints (I never did that, surprise surprise), but it definitely wasn't part of the ceremonies from my memory.

Just to be a nitpicker, doesn't one of the Commandments also say "Honour thy father and thy mother"? If your only father is the one in heaven, then who is supposed to be your mother? We're not all Jesus after all.

That may be, but religion is based on belief, not fact. If your sister in law believes the cat is called Louis, and you believe it's called Nancy, who is right? It's your cat, so it's you, but every religion claims that it is the correct one. They're not all the same, and pretty much all of them hold the belief that if you're not a part of theirs, or don't comply, then you're doomed to eternal torment. You see what I'm getting at here?

That leads into my next point - the cat may still exist, but your analogy was a poor one. I think a more apt one would be "I believe I have a pet cat that I call Nancy" and your sister in law believes "I have a sister in law who has a pet dog called Louis". All you can agree on is that you have a pet. Ditto religion - all they can agree on is some kind of afterlife, not the form and path.

That poses the obvious question - do I believe in some form of afterlife? If I do, pick a religion, and go for it. The thing is, I am honestly undecided upon the issue. I would LIKE for there to be an afterlife, because 80 years or less of consciousness in a universe billions of years old seems like a pretty rough deal (the sheer scale of it, and the accompanying thoughts of "Well what the fuck can I hope to do with my life? What the hell is the point?") to me. To be able to continue in some form after my physical death would be nice. On the other hand, I have trouble believing that my soul will fly to some mythical place where I will either be rewarded or punished depending upon my deeds, or that there can be life after death.

So why shouldn't I take a gamble of sorts, and believe all out in a religion? Why not take the "well if I'm wrong, I've lost nothing, but if I'm right I gain a lot" option? Here's why:

1. That's probably the worst attitude to have as a believer - not to believe because you think it's right, but to believe as a way of hedging a bet (it could also be argued that you're not a true believer with that attitude).

2. If you're wrong in your choice of religion, then you're probably even more fucked than if you didn't pick one (at least that way you could make some sort of "The heretics deceived me!" argument).

3. I despise making the wrong choice. I would rather make no choice than the wrong one. Not because I'm indecisive, but because I only take a course of action if I know (or believe) I'm right. If I can't pick it, I'll hold off until I can. It's why I'm a terrible gambler and I never bet. I'm not willing to bet on my choice of religion unless I'm sure it's the right one, and until I'm convinced, I'm sticking to indifferentism.

Bet you didn't see this long, rambling post on my religion and philosophy (of sorts) coming did you?