Fuck katanas.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dark Elf, Jul 3, 2009.

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  1. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    Actually, just kicking the knight down on his back should do the trick, as the armor is so heavy, a Knight on ground is a dead Knight.

    Hell, one of the Holy Roman Emperors died in the Second Crusade because he fell into an Anatolian river and his armor brought him down. It is without combat of any type.
     
  2. Transparent Painting

    Transparent Painting Well-Known Member

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    Pics or it never happened.

    If you are already are in range to kick a knight down, then you're either dead, the knight wields a shield to defend himself against kicks or the knight has failed miserably.
     
  3. papa_dog_1999

    papa_dog_1999 Well-Known Member

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    Just as soon as you show me a night killing a samurai to prove that a katana couldn't get through the armor. :p

    It's a known fact that the English longbow can and did penetrate suits of armor. They even had armor piercing arrow heads. If the English longbow can do it, so can the Daikyū.
     
  4. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    The myth that a fallen knight in platmail could not get up is just stupid.

    If it restricted your movement so much that you couldn't get off of your back then armour would have been an unusable deathtrap. Yes armour is heavy but it is custom designed to fit the form of the buyer and is an extremely well designed and functional piece with a lot of movement. Not to mention that someone on the battlefield was in top physical condition, they weren't weak they could carry it well enough. In fact the weight was evenly spread throughout the suit making it easier. A modern infantry soldier probably has a harder time with those giant heavy arsed backpacks.

    And Barbarosa (ie THE Holy Roman Emperor) drowned because he was a damned fool, most anybody can walk in platemail but trying to swim in it is just plain stupid.
     
  5. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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    That armor FAILS! It's where the Katana and Japanese armor shine.

    You do realize that people died in those tin cans right? And not just because of crossbows. Try to imagine how + try to move with that thing on. You'd be trying to pick up your weapon with your teeth afetr loosing your libs. A chainmail is lighter and gives more movement then that thing and the visability... does it even have any? You can barely see a fast moving opponent in that.

    Btw metal can cut thre metal.Just like a sword can cut threw another sword.
     
  6. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    You're obviously trolling, but I'll respond anyway.

    As Vorak said, platemail does not render you unable to move. Far from it. A full plate armour set can weigh as little as 20 kg, a weight which is distributed evenly over your body. You can run and dodge just fine. While difficult, it's even possible to swim, or at least keep oneself floating, in full plate.

    Too bad I couldn't find the video clip where a guy in plate mail runs a fucking hurdle race.

    Says something about the mobility in those tin cans eh? There is a good reason plate armour was the pinnacle of European warfare technology for so many years.

    Let me guess, you've never actually worked with metal, have you?

    Plate armour was essentially sword proof. As armours became better, knights moved away from swords to warhammers, poleaxes and maces that could deliver the massive blunt force trauma needed to break through the damn things. The only way you could beat a knight with a sword would be if you used it to thrust at weak points, as was taught by German schools of swordsmanship.

    You couldn't use a katana for that though, as it will break if you use it for thrusting. It's made for slashing unarmoured opponents, and are fine weapons for that purpose. Against full plate they invariably bend or shatter though.
     
  7. Minuos

    Minuos New Member

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    Slapping a generic suit of platemail onto the average Joe and sending him straight into battle would be stupid. If anyone in history ever did that, then they deserved the death they received. Fitness and preparation are paramount for survival in dangerous situations, regardless of the circumstances.

    As DE mentioned, weapons have different uses. No one in their right mind would want to use a katana against a well-prepared and properly armoured knight. Katanas are notorious, but they're now over-hyped by fan-boys and Danny John-Jules.

    Why should this discussion even be taking place? I don't think you have the right forum.
     
  8. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    Two points on this:

    - If you fall down, it's a death trap. At a cavalry cahrge, you'll get trampled before you can "try" to get up, and if you're on foot, you'll get up slowly, which essentially means you're dead in the war. To be able to get up fastly, your abdominal muscles need to exert enough explosive force to accelarate both you upper body and the plate mail you're wearing. Try doing a pull up with 15 kg+ on your chest to see my point.

    - Heavy cavalry were not mobile. English Longbowmen wiped out the French Chevaliers in the Battle of Agincourt, and Turkish cavalrymen (we invented ranged cavalry combat by the way) wiped out any Crusader or Cataphrachtoi they faced (excluding the First Crusade, when a 20 year old Anatolian Seljuk State faced a few hundred thousand men Crusader army. All the others were defated though.) Long Ranged/Mobile units always rule the battlefield better than heavily armored targets, unless their armor is to the point of giving them immunity. Only Longbows/Composite Bows could pierce through armor at that time though.

    Also, do note that those swords are heavy and they have a massive moment of inertia, meaning that if the Knight misses his heavy one hit blow, the Samurai will wipe him out. Added with all the martial arts training they have, it's obvious who would win at that.

    Final point - All the pirates/privateers/navymen equipping light clothing and rapiers instead of heavy swords and platemail for close quarters boarding action should tell you that Heavy Knights were obsolete even in melee combat after Renaissance.

    Note: I'm rooting for the lighter swords because I used to be a fencer and my Romanian Instructor (who has a 4th and a 6th place in the Olympics!) once explained to me why rapiers, sabers and other light arms were now used instead of heavy swords+armor. Basically, you cannot (simply cannot) use heavy two handed swords to quickly parry/riposte and keep the sword in front of you. While you are swinging to power up a blow which will slice you opponent in half, you leave massive openings to your opponents. Even if your armor would protect you from a rapier/katana/other lightarm, the opening is enough for you opponent to "fleche" right at you and drop you down (assuming he didn't just decide to put his sword in one of the connection points of armor pieces), take your swords and kill you, or worst case possibility, see the attack (because it is so obvious) and dodge it and do his thing. I enjoy Chivalry stories too, but they just were effective against opponents who didn't know any better.

    Another thing you seem to forget: Katanas and Broadswords are both made for slashing. Broadsword is too heavy to make a lunge with, so a piercing thrust is out of question for Broadswords. The reason you don't thrust with Katanas is because Japanese melee doctrine suggests that you finish off your opponent in one blow, or he can kill you too while hemorrhaging to death. Piercing thrusts are for fencing (and polearms, to be honest)
     
  9. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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  10. JustaFishInaJar

    JustaFishInaJar New Member

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    Hell, by the time I got out of the military I could wear full combat armor, a fully weighted down backpack, two weapons, plus my medical gear and firemen carry another Marine with said stuff minus the medical and run like the wind in the hottest environments on Earth. With the right training and adrenaline those suits of armor would be a breeze to use.

    Nolanoth: Sounds like some of your information might have come from anime. In that case I would rather have good ol' fashion Japanese breast milk.
     
  11. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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  12. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    Falling down in front of a cavalry charge is a deathtrap, armour has little to do with that. If you are in armour you are NOT massively slowed down however you will fatigue more easilly but so will the guy running around with a hammer trying to smash his way into your casing. Although admittedly you won't be doing this:

    <object width="425px" height="360px"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="wmode" value="transparent"><param name="movie" value="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=26918357,t=1,mt=video"><embed src="http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=26918357,t=1,mt=video" width="425" height="360" allowFullScreen="true" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"></embed></object>

    Mobile does not = Can run faster than an arrow. Cavalry was easily the most mobile form of troop at the time, they could cover large distances quickly which was key. However they COULD be killed by arrows which they couldn't outrun, but then neither could the guys without armour.

    The idea of the knight in platemail with a sword is often distorted. A sword is pretty bloody pointless except for a one on one situation against a guy without armour or hacking at a few guys without armour from your horse (not recommended). The sword was a weapon of last resort for when you made contact with the enemy. You used every other resource at your disposal before you ran in and went at it with swords. "Oh look the enemy everybody run towards them with your swords before we do anything else" was not a common order. And when you did draw your sword it was never against another guy with the bankroll to commission armour it was to hack at some ill equipped infantry. Most medieval armies were given only basic equipment, it wasn't like the Roman legion with each member having personal steel armour.

    What kind of idiot pirate/privateer/navyman would wear platemail? They are on a ship surrounded by water (in which you drown if you are heavy) in a time when it was a common superstition that knowing how to swim meant you were more likely to fall in the water in the first place. Plus once those guys really only became effective once gunpowder was common place and gunpowder is the shortcut inside of any armour.
     
  13. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Except wearing a suit of armour wouldn't be like having a 15 kg weight flat on your chest. A good suit of armour distributes the weight over your body, it's more like having gained 20 kg really. Gaining that amount of weight might slow you down somewhat, but you're nowhere near immobile.

    Falling down during a cavalry charge (or even an infantry charge) means sure death to anyone regardless of armour.

    Not arguing with this.

    No.

    You make it sound as if though European swords were nothing more but slabs of raw iron mounted on a hilt, when they were in fact often superior to their Japanese counterparts in every way that counts. The reason why traditional katana's require such godly time to be crafted is not because of any divine secrets, it's because the Japanese had piss-poor iron and had to treat it immensely to make anything worth a damn out of it. A good European sword is light, balanced and just as deadly as any katana.

    As for the "heavy blow and martial arts" thing, people in Europe knew how to fight, with weapons and without. There were a multitude of schools in Europe for that very purpose. Knights were taught swordsmanship as well as the use of other weaponry, unarmed combat, you name it.

    A fight between a knight and a samurai would come down to equipment, and there the knight is superior.

    Heavy knights were made obsolete once firearms were advanced enough to penetrate armour. No point in manufacturing an expensive suit of mail when a peasant could obliterate it with a matchlock. Hence heavy armour fell into disuse and lighter swords became popular (as they are better suited for unarmoured/lightly armoured targets).

    As for my final point, the reason why Japan stuck to their traditional ways of fighting was because of their isolationism and conservatism. Guns were widely used in Japan up until the Tokugawa shogunate, which banned their use. You don't see much progress happening in a nation that practically locks itself out from the rest of the world.

    Europe on the other hand was a fucking mess of cultures, religions and nations that waged war with each other constantly. Sticking to the old ways meant sure death; therefore weapons technology had to be improved constantly. Whereas in Japan it was mostly about Samurai cutting each other up in a very formal manner.

    Don't misunderstand me; I have a lot of respect for Japanese martial arts and weaponry. But I also know that there are things that beat the crap out of them.
     
  14. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    Ah yes Mythbusters a quality source of entertainment, I quite like watching it. But a TV show using a sword which they claim is real hooked up to a robot arm and hitting another sword they claim is real is not the best of sources for proof.
     
  15. TheDavisChanger

    TheDavisChanger Well-Known Member

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    Yes, pity that. The threat of progress necesitates its pursuit. Take the example of indigineous tribespeople around the world. There's is a perfectly sustainable lifestyle that has been threatened at all times by "progress."
     
  16. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    Gaining 20 kg direct fat would kill your ability to do a pushup, but still, I don't feel I should object you on this.

    Even if the sword isn't raw iron mounted on a hilt, the blade will weigh more than the hilt - which means the moment of inertia will be A LOT more than the moment of inertia of katana. Also, having the center of mass on the blade means that the gravitational force will pull the blade downwards with greater torque, which means that you cannot use quick thrusts and touches with that sword. In a swordfight, even fractions of seconds matter, and a skilled light arms fighter will have enough of a timegap to launch a fleche (running thrust) to the opponents weak spot.

    Of course, that doesn't mean the Knights aren't good. Quite the opposite - French Knights wiped out the Emevi Caliphates Armies (Arabs basically) armed with Crescent Swords ("the" most excellent slashing weapon due to the shape and the physics it involves). I really doubt they could've done that if they didn't have the armor advantage. European swordplay didn't evolve to fencing just because of firearms.(Sabers were inspired by slightly bent Turkish/Mongol Cavalry swords (thus saber fighters don't hit under the waist / saber is practically cavalry combat simulation adding the attack advantages), and the nobles created the fleuret while the Scoundrels created the épée.

    I don't have a lot of sympathy over some Japanese nobility myself. Considering their honor rules just considered inter-Samurai affairs and they could execute anyone publicly (by turning a basic affair to "you insulted my honor"), they aren't really as honorable as they seem to be either. It is just that with the melee combat knowledge I have, I know that mobility, reflexes and quick reactions always beat the ability to exert brute force, while someone can use a broadsword fast, a person can use a rapier even faster.

    Note: I really regard fencing as the ultimate form of melee combat, as it is the pinnacle of the evolution of melee combat over the course of centuries.
     
  17. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    The reason you started using lighter weapons and threw away your armour, were because a simple chinese invention called blackpowder.

    When everyone start using weapons which are easily used to pierce armour, the need for any armour disepears. And when you are fightning with no armour, you want light and mobile weapons, like rapiers.
     
  18. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    Firearms isn't the only reason people develop lighter arms. Agile light cavalry armed with composite bows and light swords wiped out many heavy Knights. Warfare itself evolves with melee techniques.

    Saying Medieval Knights would be better than fencer because of the armor is like saying the Roman Praetorian Guard would defeat medieval Knights because of their tower shields. Not happening. Melee combat itself has evolved and embraced a faster, deadlier approach.

    Besides, it is very easy for a fencer to attack the hands on an opponent, and broadswords have no hilt-guards.
     
  19. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Not to sound Hitlerian or anything, but I would be prepared to bet rather substantial money on that nothing has meant more for human progress than the institution of war. If we had all been content with sitting hand in hand around huge bonfires singing Kumbaya all day long, our technological level would still have been on par with the tribespeople you mention. By and large however complacency is anathema to human nature, hence the necessity of progress.

    I will not argue that last point. Comparing medieval knights to more modern fencing techniques is, just as you put it, an anachronism.
     
  20. wobbler

    wobbler Well-Known Member

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    How much is the most you have worn while doing pushups?

    Because I have worn a 10kg chainmail loaded with a couple of kg plates, all and all maybe 15 kg, but that didn't stop me from running around nor doing push ups. Granted, I got tired real quick, but I am not a trained warrior spending a lot of time to improve my physical strength or my fighting capability.
     
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