Evolution of a 'Jolly Old Elf'

the only thing any of you are proving is that you have to have the last word. so somebody suck it up and shut the hell up.

 

I'm with Wolf. Wait, that's not right. No, I believe it is. :shoots self:

The example was exceedingly poor. Evidence of wealth exists all around us, even if we are too impoverished to handle an enormous sum ourselves. I don't believe Wolf was bragging about the value of his house; he was merely demonstrating the existence of wealth. So lose the wealth example, as no faith is needed in that instance. Pick something for which there is NO evidence, and which would require real faith to believe in. Faeries for instance. Or invisible, nondetectable dragons.

Then TELL him the meaning of "stuff", instead of giving him nonsensical examples and then flaming him when he calls you on it.

 

There is NO point. I've given up. He does not get a clue when it's shoved in front of his face.

 

I tend to agree, but in all honesty you didn't present much of an argument here, and I don't know what you shoved in his face but I don't think it was a "clue". Save your criticisms of Wolf for when he actually deserves it; chances are you won't have to wait long.

I once had a similar argument with my ex-fiance. He pointed out that I believed in the existence of DNA, but had I ever seen it? Well yes, in fact I had, you just need to place it in some solution and you'll get icky strands of gunk.... Ah right, bad example, he conceded. Don't blame others when you've made a horrible argument.

Faith is when you believe in something despite the utter lack of any evidence to support your belief, simply because you want to believe. That's it. You can wax poetic all day about how you "feel there's something more out there" but in the end it's all bullshit and if you're going to believe in everything that can't be disproven there is NO END TO THE CATASTROPHIC IDIOCY THAT YOU AND YOUR KIND WILL UNLEASH UPON THE WORLD.

Ooo, Most Extreme Elimintation Challenge is on. Wedding planners v. truckers! High-five, beer and pretzels for all.

 

That's gotta hurt!

 

I'm with Canis on this one. Especially this part:

 

Blinky I asked her to cast a spell on me. If she claimed to worship the force, or practice the jedi religion or whatever you want to call it, I'd ask her to give me an example of the force in action.

Its not that I personally believe christianity or buddhism, or shintoism to be a true religion, but no one outside an ethereal being is going to convince me that wicca is nothing but a conspiracy dreamt up by a secret coalition of the most powerful incense/herbalist in america, as an excuse to sell candles, books, and pewter talismans.

As for what canis said, I think its pretty cynical, but I also pretty much agree totally. The only thing I put any faith in is that ability of one indiviual to feel compassion or sympathy for another individual, I guess you could say I worship empathy.

I don't think people are idiot's for reading the bible, or for practicing a certain religion, i make my decision on how idiotic/intelligent they are about their religion based on where they let it take them, or where they take it. RevMartin Luther King Jr.? A hero. Mother Teresa? A hero.

The kkk? The Christian Action Network? PTA members trying to abolish the teaching of evolution in American Public Schools? All complete fucking idiots.

 

aaaahhhhhhh.................there is nothing like beating a dead horse!!*
*if you understand what this means, then maybe you will stop posting in this pointless arguementative thread

 

Why? I've never found anything particularly admirable about her except for the masterful way she manipulated huge masses of people. Somewhere around here I've got an old issue of Free Inquiry dedicated to her; the stories are horrifying. Here're some good articles as well:

Christopher Hitchens On Mother Theresa
Mother Teresa's House of Illusions
The Illusory Vs. The Real Mother Teresa

Saintly old woman indeed. :roll:

 

Canis, just because you can prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It doesn't mean it does either. I am very sceptical of religion because it seems they only use God, Allah, or some other unexplicable force to explain what they can't, because people have to "know" everything. What we know, we know, what we don't know, we know "God" knows.

But I am also blessed, although some would say cursed, with a severe lack of faith. If someone happens to have faith, I won't begrudge them that, and if they believe in something that cannot be verified one way or the other, who am I to judge. You say only idiocy is when you believe in something that has no proof, well there really isn't any proof that God DOESN'T exist, so isn't it, under your logic, to believe he doesn't?

No, when people start judging based on unfounded speculation, that's when I have problems with them, or when people refuse to accept facts because they would interfere with their unfounded beliefs. I use evolution as an example. We have evidence of evolution. There is no evidence of God. So how can you use God to refute evolution?

But it would seem that you are arguing against the concept of faith, which is inherently just an extension of hope. I've never found anything wrong with hope, I don't know why you do.

 

Hope leads to disappointment.

 

Eh?

If it is an extension of hope, the extension is very long and thin indeed. It's like saying a schizophrenic delusion is an extension of imagination, and good lord I wouldn't want to say there's something wrong with imagination would I? I wasn't arguing against hope (shaddup smartass), I was arguing against the value of faith as a means of knowing and understanding which complements or supplants reason. Read Labyrinthian's post, the last one on page three of this thread, for an explanation of why people such as myself deride faith. Yes, I'm too lazy to paraphrase, what of it.

Anyway, point is that I wasn't arguing against the concept of hope, though you get half a brownie point for trying to change the focus of discord. :bunny:

I can sit around and pray and have hope and faith that my doggie's hip dysplasia will vanish of its own accord, or I can be reasonable and cough up $3500 for an operation. Which approach do you suppose will achieve the desired result? No, you may NOT come to my house, smack my dog on the forehead, and shout, "I BANISH THEE SATAN IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!!!" So don't even ask.

 

you should do both. cough up the money and get your doggie some help, then pray that he has a speedy recovery with no further complications or infections. there's a saying, "God helps those who help themselves" the people who sit around and expect that just because they believe in Him, God will give them everything for nothing, are retarded. i don't pray that GOd will make me a millionare--i pray that he'll help me find a way to make the money i need on my own. granted, i know that sounds like i should probably just rely on myself and stop believing, but it is comforting to think that someone else is in control. it's nice to believe that there's a reason for the fucked up shit that happens.

 

And the reason is...God works in myserious ways. Of course in my opinion this is total bullshit.

 

and we all value your opinion, don't we boys and girls?

 

OH, THAT post. Well Canis, I thanks you for the half a brownie point.

You're making me sound like I'm religious at all, I'm really not. Basically you have a question of God and absolutely no proof. So you would be stupid to either say he doesn't exist or say he does, nothing supports that. If you feel he does fine, but it's completely unfounded.

I completely agree with you about your logic point, an it's equitable to if I said I had faith I could fly, although you have to bear with me. I have no proof I can fly. I logically know that most things that fall off buildings die. So why would I jump off a building? It would be challanging proven logic with completely uncorroborated belief.

The same holds true for your dog. Even if I was one of those crazy televangilists, I know that it is a fact, if you pay for the surgery, your dog has a chance to improve. If you pray, it isn't proven that he has a chance to improve. Take your pick.

I return your half brownie point as a reward for making me look like I'm all into religiousness.

Wolf, it's their belief. Do you have proof God doesn't work in mysterious ways? Maybe God just can't do it all. Or maybe it was just some Hebrew doing a bad acid trip.

Any way you choice to look at it, we have no proof, and just as I feel religious people shouldn't pass judgements or laws based on their unfounded religions, I have to remind you, the position that God doesn't exist is ALSO unfounded. I would find it hypocritical for you to start judging people based on your beliefs.

 

Well, to not at least consider that fact that god could just be sitting up there watching us is a more viable conclusion imo.

The debate on whether or not a god exists is a stalemate as far as i can tell. There is no hard evidence as far as i can tell, but then i look around me and i guess there is evidence. There is no way i can know for sure. I might look up in the sky one night and a bright light might speak to me, but it could be aliens or something you know?

 

That wasn't my intention, really. Beyond the specific point about mixing hope with faith, I just felt like prattling on about the debate in general, and I added the thing at the end because it amused me and because I was watching some forehead-smacking televangelist at the time. This guy looks just like Slobodon Milosevic, I swear to god. (Wolf, one word about how you don't know who Milosevic is and how you don't think it's fair for people to expect you to know or look it up, and I will SCREAM.)

As I have since eaten the half a brownie point, have a bunny instead. :bunny:

There is no such debate as far as I am concerned. Only one side is asserting anything, and the other side is still waiting for some kind of evidence to be presented. Doesn't leave a lot of material for debate, hence all the entertaining flaming.

 

I know there is no current debate taking place officially, i just mean the question in general in unanswerable as far as i can tell. I'd like it to be yes, but then again, I want it to be a god on my terms and therin lies the problem we all face.

 

Well, it would appear Wolf is asserting things. He's a perfect example of displaying that exact hypocritical, holier-than-thou attitude that people who are against organized religion accuse the church of practicing. He's on a different team but he plays by the same rules. Of course it is just Wolf, so who cares? It's not like anyone cares what the mutt says.