Evolution of a 'Jolly Old Elf'

We can't lose. We're too cynical.

 

Rosenshyne, I believe I love you. It's people like you that make this world tolerable. Have your belief, hold your belief, cherish your belief, but don't force me to do the same. That's my view on it all. I agree 199% with Rosenshyne, I myself am Agnostic, and I disagree with those who try to convince me there is a god, but I won't insult them for their belief, nor will I try to change thier mind. Your beliefs are exactly that, they are your views, and your choices. Brought upon you by the expieriances within your life time. Sleek, I agree with what you said about the homeless man, and if I was there with cash, I probably would've emptied my wallet into his hands. I disagree with most of what you say, but that point there is a good one. Believe what you want to believe, people, but do not insult me, Sleek, Wolfie, or anyone else for having views that differ from yours.

 

When I argue like this it is never my intention to sway your opinion, merely present an opposing opinion, in order to open your eyes to a way of thinking you may not have thought of, or considered. Therefore I will always argue equally against insistent atheists, and people full of righteous religious certainty.

 

I think I've got a reasonable idea of both sides of the argument - while I'm an athiest (with a pinch of agnosticism - because this is my belief, not my knowledge), I was brought up (14%) Catholic and educated in a Catholic primary school. Even so, I'm not going to say much unless provoked .

 

You see, this is what pisses me off. People always think the worst of me. I wouldn't openly insult you for your beliefs. I'm sure those that believe in God are happier than I am. That's not to say I'm depressed.

I think you just described most people in the argument, it's just that Rosie was the only one who said it. As far as I know, no one is going to sway anyone's opinion. Anyone who does, I salute you for your masterful speechcraft an intelligence. No one but God could sway my beliefs, and as far as I'm concerned belief in God is extremy illogical and irrational.

 

As far as you are concerned. Anyway, people don't always guide themselves by logic.

 

so are you trying to play Devil's Advocate or major pain in the ass? For that matter, what IS the difference between the two? I think what your doing is a very good, and useful thing, assuming, of course, that you do it right.

 

Devil's advocates are funny. Pains in the ass are not. Besides, you can be the devil's advocate, and not be hated for it, but everyone avoids a pain in the ass. I have frequent, very long debates with one of my friends, and we both play the devil's advocate role pretty well. One of these debates went for more than 3 hours.

 

I just wanted to say that you're nuts, I KNOW I would openly ridicule anyone who believed in modern day vampirism, the Wiccan "religion," believed in their own racial superiority, or in the trapezoidal shape of the earth. (or their own adolescent intellectual superiority to the adolescent intellectuals of the past...)

There are just some beliefs I can't believe people would believe in.

 

Ahh, but I said their beliefs, and I'm talking about belief in God.

 

what i don't understand is why faith offends you so badly, Jeek. so i'm comfortable in my chosen beliefs. so what? and if someone wants to believe the earth is a hunk of cheese on a turtle's back, what's it to you? does it threaten your peace of mind? does it harm your economic interests? i mean, seriously, why do you care what i believe in or why? and why do you feel the need to convince me i'm not only wrong, but a degenerate human being? what about my belief in God harms you?

 

Of what Sleek mentioned, I only agree with the racial superiority thing, but only because most people who believe in that discriminate others from different races. But as for the rest, I agree with Rosenshyne. How does it harm you that people believe in such things? And do you even know what Wicca is?

 

If someone continues to believe that the earth rests ib the shell of a turtle, despite the fact that the earth has been photographed from space numerous times, it does not offend me, it astounds me. By arguing with someone like that I'd only be seeking to open their eyes.

Your faith does not offend me.

As for harming my economic interests... faith was the motivator behind the suicide bombing of the world trade center. I don't question belief, I question the inability of the faithful to question the motivation of their actions. This applies to christians as well, we have our own suicide bombers, and extremists; the KKK, the Christian Action Network, and various other nuts that decided it was ok to snipe at, and pipe bomb abortion clinics. Did they ever stop and ask, is my interpretation of God's will possibly false?

 

I'm glad that this thread (totally innocent and curious in its nature) got like 4 responses in the format desired. :x

I mearly wanted to know what customs, traditions, or otherwise that ya'll followed/practiced/noted/whatever. Then because of my poll (also intended to gain understanding and insight) and something that was said; this thread turned into a religious/non-religion/belief/non-belief debate

I care not to say what I do or do not believe in, as it does not need to be dicussed/argued/opinionated/examined/quoted/picked-apart/debated/whatever. Although I cannot say I did not somewhat enjoy perusing the replies, and analyse with my learnt pyschology (glad to see that I didn't completely waste my $$) what each of you is/was doing and perhaps why! :thumbup: Keep up the good debating or whatever it is ya'll are doing!



Have fun in my thread ya'll :wavey: This shall be the last I post and/or read of it. :-(

 

Faith is a purposed denial of the validity of reason, is both tantamount and a precursor to ignorance. An ignorant society is easily manipulated by the propaganda of dictators and other corrupt governments. They have denied reason and so cannot be critical using reason. If they try, they deducefrom false premises and reach false conclusions (god says x is bad, Joe's doing x, Joe's bad). When the world here and now is devalued, one's own will, one's essence suffers, and so the person is less human. When suffering is valued, as it is in Christianity, compassion -- not of the individual but of society -- is crippled, and all is left, policywise, is sound and fury, but no action, in the name of compassion. This comes back to ignorance. In religion, another man's soul, not his earthly form is your brother. As uch, many iniquities and much cruelty can be justified under the pretext that it is only his body being scourged, but that his soul is being freed. The truly wise see real brotherhood in form and in totum. Faith detracts from this wisdom. This is not only faith in God, but in Marx, or Astrology or Fatherland or Homeland or what have you. All faith leads to ignorance. All faith leads to a manipulable society. HItler could not have won the lection had the Germans used reason. They had faith in God and Fatherland and were manipulated easily. Bush lies to America daily, truly lies big lies, and the people are still manipulated, in part because of Bush's shroud of the born again and partly because of the people's faith in Homeland. Caesar himself said the easiest way to triumph politically is to resort to lies of religious faith, not lies of politics, for men do not question religion. It works. It always works, and it always will work until people allow reason to extinguish the black consuming flame of faith.

BTW, historically, faith only became important in Christianity after Augustine, who realized that God could not be reconciled with reason. Part of Aquinas's reason for writing was to attack the necessity of faith by showing that God could be reconciled to reason. Two things happened, though. One, his writing was worshipped instead of read. Two, he failed to actually do what he set out to do, since it cannot be done.

I cannot change the faithful. I can only hope that they transcend their own faith and reach the state of mystic, which in turn transcends ignorance. Usually they do not, and so atrocities will continue.

Man, I shouldn't write this stuff drunk. Just don't feel like editing for clarity and diplomacy. That invites flames. Ach, well. Flame away.

 

Sleek, you know NOTHING of Wicca nature if you believe that Turtle Shells has anything to do with it. Turtle shells as an old Native American belief, or something. Wicca is not something I can accurately describe (since I ain't one mehselv), but I've dated a few, so I *think* I've got the gist of it. I'm not going to go into the followings and what not, I'll just give some simple basics: Wicca is a belief in magic, white and black, as well as power of the earth, Wiccas are like modern day Druids (no, not exactly, but that's fairly close), not Ancient Americans.
[off-topic]I apologize for straying from topic with this: but are any of you a part of Asian Avenue?[/off-topic]
Sleek, if you would please: look up the defination of Wicca, or Wiccan, and learn some stuff about it before making such abhorrent and untrue remarks as the one above. *smiles politely* Labyrinthian, you may be drunk off your ass, but your writing rings true. faith does exist because with reason you cannot prove the existance of god, you can only unprove them. But, since all of you are questing to know the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, I'll tell you: 42. There, you now know all there is to know.

 

YAY DRUNKEN POSTING! It should be a new sport! Like Beriut.



Sleek, you obviously don't know anything about Wicca. Yes, I agree, people should be asking serious questions about their faiths before they start wars based on them. What I disagree with is people like you being so hypocritical as to say you accept all faiths, except of course for x, y, and z.

What the fuck do you even know about Wicca to make a determination about it? What the fuck do you know about modern day vamprism? You obviously "think" you know enough to reject them outright, but those beliefs make sense to whoever follows them. When you want to pretend to be some great debater and this "Devil's Advocate", make sure you know what your own case is before you start acting like you can open anyone's eyes.

You have a problem with racial superiority? I personally think it's idiocy, but whoever thinks it's true has that right. If they start discriminating, that's another story, but it is THEIR belief to question, not yours. Oh and BTW, white supremecists look down on blacks, and you look down on religions like Wiccan, modern vamprism. Same story, different name as far as I'm concerned.

 

Sure its their right to believe in their own racial superiority, but why isnt it my right to believe that they are retard's because of it? WHY CANT YOU ACCEPT MY BELIEFS!!!???? :lol:

Please explain to me how casting spells on people etc, has anything to do with your idea of a good religion.

And seriously, if it wasn't for Bram Stoker, those people who think they're vampires, or that vampires really exist, etc, would be obsessed with Star Trek, or something a little more kosher.

 

Kosher?

The definition of prejudice is thinking people are less than you because they don't follow your guidlines, be those guidlines that good people are white, or that good people aren't Wiccan.

It doesn't matter what my idea of a good religion is, it matters what theirs is, that's why I don't judge their religion. Another thing that matters is the fact, that you come and post like your God's gift to debating, and in the span of 5 or 6 posts you say:
1. you hate people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.
2. you believe we shouldn't judge other people's religions, merely respect their right to practice them
3. there are a couple of religion you don't respect, because they don't live up to your standards
4. that these religions should be doing something more kosher

Then to top it off, you got mad someone tried to prove you a hypocrite! You're doing a pretty good job without our help!

Your little philosophy is to respect people's rights to religion, yet you break it in certain circumstances that aren't "kosher". So doesn't that make you, not only prejudiced, but as bad as those Christians who don't act like Christian? Aren't you hypocritical to say you don't respect prejudiced people, or people who preach but don't practice, when you yourself do the same thing? And aren't you even worse then all of them because you are so naive as to think your some great voice of justice?

 

*Watches as Sleek_Jeek's posts get blown out of proportion.*