Evolution of a 'Jolly Old Elf'

Well, if there is no God, what has believing in him and hoping all my life cost me? Nothing. BUT, but, when we die, and you were WRONG, where are you gonna be? If you're an aetheist, fine, be one. Me trying to convince you otherwise would be a waste of breath. I don't believe that I have the power to do that anyway. That takes a divine touch, I believe. Don't be so quick to judge those who do believe (in God, Santa Claus, whatever) That just tells me that you aren't really an aetheist so much as some punk crying for attention.

I believe in Santa Claus. If not physically, I believe in the magic of him. I remember when I was told by my parents that there really wasn't one, the joy just kinda went outta Christmas that year. That joy was replaced however, by giving gifts from me to the rest of my family. But there still was a warm, radiant magic about that time of year.

And that's not even bringing up the real reason for the season. That, to me, is the greatest gift of all.

 

Alot of people choose to be an atheist because it makes them feel superior.

I know for a fact that there is a God. I choose to beleive in him. Atheism is a theory. It hasn't been around hardly any compared to Christianity.

 

People are born atheist. I remain one because of the rather extreme lack of evidence in favor of any deity's existence.

Do you have any factual evidence to back this up, or are you making a causal connection between choosing to believe in something and its actual existence? Please don't make me drag out my faeries at the bottom of the garden example again.

Atheism is lack of belief in any deity, period. It's not a "theory". If anyone is making a theoretical claim, it is the theists, and unless I've missed something they've missed the burden of proof by a longshot. And don't tell me you really think that atheism is younger than Christianity.

 

Hey, I never thought it would happen, but I actually agree with Canis. Completely. You say we atheists are atheists so we can feel superior. Well I say you religious types are all more judging than us. That opinion is purely based on Matah's and retard's post so ignore it. MatahChuah and retard have just proven that. I know I said I don't care if you bagged me but I was talking about the Santa Claus thing. Seriously, I don't mean to get you guys down here, but do you know many many times the Bible contradicts itself? I believe it said something about cast away the blind and deaf as they are sinners or some such. Any way there is no evidence of God. If there is a God, could someone deliver this message to him.

"Go fuck yourself you divine wanker."

On a dumber and much less serious note.

Us atheists have more fun than Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Hinduists, Scientologists, Jedi Knights, and all other religions which I haven't named. Because we need no morals. Thus we can have more fun. When I turn 18, I'm gonna get me a whore. Hell, why wait till I"m 18. I'll just wait till I"m mature enough to derive the full amount of pleasure from it.

 

That's your misfortune.

It's because I know what life is like without God and I prefer life with him.

I really think that Atheism is younger than Chirstianity. Isn't that a commom fact? I mean Christianity has been around for over 2000 years. I don't think Atheism is anywhere near that.

 

Hmm...Let's see, did the Australapithicus(sp?) or Naeanderthal(sp?) believe in God? I doubt it. Even if they did, there's always someone who doesn't believe. Actually I believe there were particular Roman Atheists called Epicurions who had a saying something like...

Let's drink have lot's of women and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

It was something like that. Anyway, that's just one thing. If you want logic rather than evidence just think about it. Religion is inspired by events mostly, whether they actually happened or not. Atheism is just disbelief. Atheists need no trigger, unless they were religious and something bad happened to them. Your argument MatahChuah, is the most heinous misuse of logic I have encountered. As for the your life with God etc, I'll correct you.

I would have said illusion but that's direspectful.

 

Riiiiiiiight. You know, that's almost as patronizing as when Christians say they'll pray for people they don't like.

Exactly. You believe your god exists because you want him to.

Atheism is older than our species. It is the lack of belief in any deity, PERIOD. People did not suddenly decide not to believe in deities yesterday. Exactly why do you believe atheism is a new and trendy movement? Besides the fact that you want to believe it.

Jesus christ I agree with Wolfie. Hey, I've got a cat named Wolfie. He was raised by dogs, hence the name.... As far as I can tell he's an atheist as well. :thumbup:

 

Man, that word "bag" is getting annoying.

I am Jewish. By blood, but an atheist by reason. And I study philosophy. And religion. Why philosophy? Because I want to understand the universe. Because reason is the pinnacle of human reason, which is our greatest gift, whether given by evolution or God. That's a very short answer, but I'm not going to write a fullscale apologia here. Why religion? Because it's the great story. Those myths you solemnly deride are the most beautiful and poignant representation of the mind of many made manifest. By knowing myth, we know the humanity that bore it. Myth is by far a more potent tool for understanding the human spirit, in all its variety and simpliciy and oneness, than sociology or its ilk will ever be. Data can help us predict, but not to truly understand on a gut level what it is to be human.

I don't believe in Santa Claus or Hannuka Harry or the Tooth Fairy or Zeus or Vishnu or Brahma or Djinn or aliens or Yahweh, or Christ's divinity. Not because I want to feel superior, but because my reason will not allow me to do so. But I see the beauty in all those myths, their power to hold the minds and hearts of many, what they mean as representations of those same minds and hearts. I am annoyed by orthodoxy. I believe ignorance is the only evil, and that following the tenets of any given God is ignorant, and therefor evil. But belief? No. Belief is enviable, because it places one within the ethos of the culture that created a myth. I don't believe in myths, but I believe in their power.

Retard, Pascal's wager is tired and rejected by most theologians of most religions. If one believes just to get a reward in heaven, as you would have atheists do, he is performing a non-Christian act and will be rejected from heaven. Even if he fights for belief and truly gets faith, unless you accept the Catholic idea of the priest forgiving you, his original desire to believe just to get the goods from Jesus in the end will damn him.

Also, you really gotta remember, only Christianity, ONLY Christianity, and ONLY Chirstianity after about 300C.E., punishes atheism with damnation, and so Pascal's wager does not work for Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism, and so it does not work for 4.5 billion people whose parents' religion (and therefore the religion they are most likely to follow -- just like you) is not Christianity.

MatahChuah, personal relgious experience does not a fact make. Fact is reached by reason, faith by experience. Congratulations. You have faith in God. God cannot be proven or disproven a fact. Atheism has the same problem, but by Occam's Razor is far more likely. One only finds evidence for God if one seeks the evidence from the standpoint of already believing in God. God is a beautiful myth, and belief provides you with happiness, I assume, but it is by no means self-evident.

Guys, I don't deride your faith. Please don't deride my reason. It's reason that made medicines for babies. Would you deride those?

 

You don't believe in aliens? I do. Of course I don't expect we'll encounter any. I just find it extremely hard to believe that we are the only beings in this universe. There has to be more inhabitable planets in this universe then the amount of atoms in our body. THe belief that we are on the only planet in the universe with life, the belief that we and all other earth creatures are only, that we are the only creatures that have been created suggests a deity, and I thus have to turn away from the nonbelief in other creatures. Wow that was a pretty long sentence.

 

allow me to clarify: I don't beieve in guys with long gray faces that analy probe midwestern farmers. I believe that it is likely, considering the size of the universe, that intelligent life (by some definition of intelligence -- read the book that inspired Solaris's name for more) exists elsewhere.

Uh, really, that's all you gleaned from my post?

Wolf, if I write a serious post, feel free not to be the first to reply.

 

Labyrinthian, you said everything I wanted to say - I just can't bring myself to believe in any of the current formalised religions of today, because they don't make logical, reasonable sense. There's just too many problems with "Our way is the only TRUE way!" philosophy of them all. That's not to say that they don't have some nice ideals and practices, they do, but they're often overshadowed by the more controversial aspects.

Despite this, I am not an atheist. Nor am I religious. I am an indifferentist - I do not believe that I can know THE correct religion (the one that gets the WHOLE story of the universe, the world, humanity, life, death etc right) from all the others, if indeed THE religion exists at this point. Thus, I have adopted a position of not caring. What will be, will be.

That said, I respect the ability of people to believe in something that cannot be proven, because I am not capable of such a show of faith. If it gives you hope, that's great, just don't take it too far and start relying on religion instead of yourself to get things done for you.

 

I agree with jarinor.

But i'd like to add my own muddled views...

While i constantly argue with my jewish/muslim/christian friends about the tiny tribal insired superstitions of their various religious texts (like what meat to eat and not to eat, and birth control) and ALWAYS argue with people who say there is no doubt in their hearts that god does not exits ( i mean come on, that would mean you'd never even concieved of the possibility, and the thought had never even entered your brain) I do not consider myself an atheist. I just dont believe that any secular religion can offer what i need. My god would be a god of acceptance, not and only minimal judgement. Of course this is in line with my own personal values, but if the church's values offend me, then why should i worship the same way they do? Worship should not take place in a temple, you worship should be embodied in your actions, not muttered ramblings about the big basketball game, or your granddaddy's cancer. I dont care if you worship satan (though i'd call you a nihilistic ass hole) as long as you treated people fairly and did more good than harm.

Yeah, enough of my rambling, the point is, religion shouldnt be an excuse to repress people's views, or an excuse to force youself on a country, or blow up the twin towers. If there was only one passage in the bible i'd hope that it would be the story of the good samaritan, because that should be the only parable we need.

 

Me. I`m atheist by choice. The reasons are as labyrinthian perfectly mentioned above. I don`t dislike religious people exept a very few: The ocsional mad suecidebomber, those who kill in name of religion and:

Those who says that when they hear i`m atheist. I cannot stand arrogant people, it just gets on my nerves. I`m not religious because that is not my way, i don`t bother other people who are religious and say how stupid it just might seem to do all that stuff they do, and if they want to pray for my sould or "save" me fine by me, but don`t be so stupid to tell me "that you got a problem cause you are not religious".

On a much more serious note:

But, but they have lightsabers, and speaking funny language they do and they can make people say the same things as they.... Pinches himself, no think i would have much more fun a a jedi. Darth qilikatal.... Sounds cool.

 

The problem with any religion is that almost none of it's fundamental beliefs can be proven. I.e., our God is pink a furry and lives in a giant condo. It's impossible to prove that, at least at present. My main qualms with religion comes when people of said religion try to change non-believers based solely on unbased fact.

I once had someone tell homosexuality should NEVER be legalized because their God believes it's immoral. Well, regardless of your personal beliefs on homosexuality, everyone has to admit that this argument is idiotic, especially since I was not of the same faith as the speaker. I have no problem with religion, except when they try to force their ways on others, when they say 2 consenting adults who don't even belong to their church can't be gay, or that a woman can't have an abortion.

If the woman isn't a member of the religion, why does that church feel it has any right to harrass her about her choices in life?

Please don't get into a big debate over abortions or gay rights now, especially you 2. *eyes Wolf and Jar

I only introduced those topics as examples

 

*sighs* i fear i can't resist. i must insert my foot firmly in my mouth...

the problem with any religious/belief/non-belief system tends to be that people don't want to keep it a secret. what i mean is, whatever system you choose, you're gonna believe it, be proud of it. and when we're proud of something, we like to talk about it.

for example, as a Christian, i bring God into alot of my conversations. not because i'm trying to convert someone, but because i'm strong in my beliefs, i'm proud of my beliefs, and my beliefs are a big part of my everyday life.

it should be fine for us to talk about what we believe. if someone says "Praise Allah" in my presence, i don't get offended. if an atheist tells me there is no God, it doesn't bother me. if a jew says Jesus was just a prophet, and not the son of God, i shrug my shoulders and move on. the only religious choices that concern me are my own. everyone else is entitled to believe in exactly what, who, and why they want to. why? because God gave us free will. or, if you don't buy that, because there is no God, so we can believe what we want. or, whatever it is that justifies whatever it is you believe in.

you believe in heaven? good for you. you don't? also good. see, the thing is, your beliefs don't affect me. if they do, i'm obviously not very strong in my own. not to mention the fact that it's none of my business.

sorry to ramble on so long. please continue the thread now, i'm finding it rather fascinating

 

I dunno about finding signs of God's existence if you're going about it from a believer's standpoint. I was a half-believer by the time I reached my late teens, and the signs I looked for just plain didn't happen. That was why I was an agnostic for the seven or eight years afterwards. Then I became a Wiccan, which I've been ever since. Wicca is great. We don't go around proselytizing, and as long as you don't do anything to hurt yourself or other people, we don't give a hang if you believe in God or Allah or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

 

I only talk about my complete and utter indifference to religion when religion becomes the current topic. It would be hypocritical of me to do otherwise . I also made up my own personal devil to blame my evil acts on - the Jewelled Hand of Darkness.

Extend this example to any institution that the victim is not a part of, and you've got my opinion on the subject.

 

All this proves to me is that you've been brainwashed by the pros. Please prove to me there is a God, what? you cant? its part of his mystery? you need faith?

I just want to know at what point in time did you make a conscious decision to become a christian? There are ways be a slave to a faith, and there are ways to impact other peoples lives, faith has nothing to do with what kind of person you are. How you've impacted the people around you does.

 

Sleek, come on. Picking a fight with Rosie? When she isn't trying to prove her religion to you in any form? That just isn't Kosher with Rabbi Icairus. (In case you actually took that at face value, I am very much an atheist, and therefore certainly not a rabbi).
She wasn't trying to prove her religion to you, merely state that it is her belief system.
Sleek, you just went to be offensive. Even I don't do that.

 

Your being as bad as the churches Sleek. I get annoyed when Catholics challenge me about why I'm not Catholic, so why would I challenge them?

Rosie never asked you to justify your atheism, so why are you going to be a prick and start challanging hers?