what do we now about these vile creatures? as far as I know there was no information about them in the game . So what r they ? are they a race ? a kind of beast ? please share your thoughts.
Shared my thoughts on demons in this thread two years back. Since it's a short one, allow me to copy it whole:
Interesting yes , they do seem to be alien to arcanum as they need to be summoned from some placed which i indeed think is the underworld . but what do u think about them r they intellegent or beast like in thought?
L'anamelach's and Gorgoth's only motivation appeared to be assuaging their insatiable hunger, which is quite typical for beasts. Then again, both have proven to be capable of speech and dialogue, which does suggest some extent of intelligence. Perhaps if there was a way to remove/satisfy their hunger, they would be capable of higher thought. Now, fire demons are said to have forged the Blade of Xerxes. Smithing is definitely a sign of creativity and intelligence. Also, the demon from the "sold your soul" background is cunning enough to make a pact with a mage, providing magickal power in exchange for the wizard's dedication to a life of evil. That kind of refined desire appears to come from the top of Maslow's pyramid rather than the bottom. One option is that demons range from lower, beastlike demons to higher, intelligent ones. Another, that all demons are intelligent while in the Underworld, but once they take a physical form in Arcanum, physical needs and instincts take over. After all, prolonged hunger can turn even the most intelligent being into a ravenous savage.
yes but they do seem to have evil desires , evident by the demons choice of virgin hearts. what do u think?
Not much room for discussion here. They can be forced to fight for a good cause if summoned, but on their own they're definitely evil, obligating wizards to evil acts when intelligent and preying on sentients rather than wildlife when savage.
I find it strange that they r not mentioned in religions in arcanum. if they have a god i can imagine it bieng moorindal that created them in the first place to be his followers. if you played the " Time" module you will find that the boss is a demon who damns the mere mortal player for damning his plans. what if he was planing to invade arcanum ? what do you think?
Time is a rather simple module when it comes to story. I wouldn't consider it canon or even happening in the same universe as Arcanum. Personally, I don't like the image of demons in "Time". Sure, it was fun and refreshing to actually fight with a more significant number of them buggers for once. In the end though, I felt that it took away the unique charm demons have in the main module. In Arcanum, demons are very rare, possibly underused, but it adds to their feel of uniqueness, already placed there by the fact they that is usually a trait that makes them stand out from your average wildlife (originating from a different world, physically incomprehensible hunger, being bound as eternal guards, being vulnerable to nothing but a specific obscure weapon, you name it). In Time, where the ruins are simply crawling with them, demons quickly lose their charm and become little more than cannon fodder. They no longer intrigue and provoke questions about their origin and nature when they become as down-to-earth as say kites, just a bit bigger and tougher.
Did you ever notice that the 'greater demon' from the phantasmal fiend spell is less powerful than the 'demon' from the summoning college? It's clearly in a different class of manifestation, ie, illusion. I'm just saying. Since we're classifying demons and all. Also, what's the technical difference between fire demons and fire elementals? Could elementals be classed as demons, along with familiars? And where do vorpal bunnies fall on this spectrum? They don't seem natural...
yes there seems to be different types, as the professor in tarant said that l'anamelach was a demon from the type that can posses people while others look incorporeal . strange types I'd say I don't know about the bunnies.
Re: It's all up to speculation, really. I personally consider elementals and their smaller variations to be - as opposed to demons - animated forces of nature rather than sentient(-ish) living beings. Given the correct circumstances they appear to come into being spontaneously in abandoned places marked with their appropriate element (earth in derelict dwarven mines of the Black Mountain and Wheel clans, water in Tarant's sewers and the Old Lagoon, fire in the Pit of Fires and the Bangellian Deeps). On the other hand, these two guys may be used as an argument by anyone who wants to advocate a connection between demons and elementals. Could be a lead, could be colloquial nomenclature. The natured of familiars is shrouded by mystery. Perhaps vorpal bunnies have the same options open, just with pure nature magick being the material rather than the mage's essence in the "created via spell rather than originating from another world" explanation.
I always thought familiars were manifestations of mage's mental energy. Possibly purely illusional, but likely actual physical entities. We know magick twists the laws of nature, so it's not that far-fetched if a poweful mage could create creatures seemingly out of nothing. Perhaps they are actually constructed from surrounding enivronment on a atomic level precision. You know, almost everywhere around there would be some materials to create living beings if someone could manipulate them. It just might be that demons are similiar creations and summoning college is actually (partly) a college of matter manipulation (elemental colleges combined and taken to extreme?) that just appears to be summoning. It would make sense especially if elementals (which seem to be far simpler magickal constructions created with much less precision) are related to demons. This would also explain how necromancers can make zombies out of nothing. This only explains the body though, but I believe explanation for their apparent life is far simpler one. This brings us to the case of Underworld. I always assumed that it was related to realms of death that Kerghan visited and where most souls of deceased seem to live. Possibly some sort of mirror dimension to to it or even the exact same dimension. Anyway, I believe demons are it's original inhabitants which only exists as souls (aka energy beings) that could be summoned to be inhabit human, animal or a body created by magick. We know that every living being in arcanum is powered by a soul and a mage can pull souls back from death. On the otherhand I don't believe even the most powerful mage is capable of creating a new soul, but that every soul used in so called "summoning" has to be taken from somewhere. Technically that would make summoning college a combination of necromancy and elemental colleges I guess. :roll: Muro's argument for natural born elementals is somwhat strong too, but I don't completely buy it as pretty much the only place in the game where elementals appear to be natural is Dredge and mages seem to have power to create elementals out of natural elements. In BMC and other places there were extreme magicks utilized at some point and they could have been very well created on purpose. It could even be that there are two types of elementals actually, demonic ones which posses a soul of demon and soulless more natural elementals.
What if the elemental "demons" are corrupted elementals? Using NamelessOne's idea that the bodies of any summon are created from the environment and a soul is placed within them, it might be that an elemental was constructed and then given a soul.
I would argue that the law of conservation of souls is culturally biased. The greco-roman idea of immutable souls is contrary to the semetic definition of 'soul' as 'body', and also to the similar, buddhist notion of 'non-soul' where all beings are only a temporary collection of components. Finally, traditional prehistoric paganism is decidedly animistic, where every rock, tree and river has a spirit, or soul, just waiting for recognition. Therefore, I see no problem in classifying summoning of elementals as the creation of a soul, or the embodiment of a pre-existing, immanent soul. However, the unusual case of demons and demon elementals does suggest that there is an import of soul/mind from another realm, and that corrupted elementals are different (demonic) souls in elemental bodies.
Elementals are most probably soulless creatures. They are simply formed from the element they represent and are an extension of their creators mind. There are indeed seemingly "wild" elementals to be found in several locations throughout the game, but my guess is that they were created by somebody long ago, rather than having materialised all by themselves. I believe demons and demonic creatures are indeed from another plane, neatly named "the underworld" by scholars in Arcanum. What they do there and what the plane looks like is actually pretty unimportant. The mage summons them with what could be concieved as a kind of teleportation spell. There could be ways for demons to break through to Arcanum on their own, but from what I remember there's not too much information about that. Finally, the issue of the so-called demon-elemental hybrids; they're probably just demons. They might look different from the demons the player summons, but could still come from the same plane of existance. Aren't there different species of mamals? There's no reason why there shouldn't be more than one or two species of demons.
While I agree with that (along with rest of your post), there is that dreadful Dredge which conflicts really bad with this, but then again whole Dredge is strange case. Some of the creatures are apparently natural deep cavern dwellers like those strange spiders, but there are frigging wolves and werewolves. Also Burnowars and Gowraths. Just what the hell did Wheel Clan do there and why they let monsters and animals in? Dungeon design at it's finest I guess. :roll:
Lorek the Abjurer was of the Wheel Clan. I'm unsure of the meaning of 'Abjurer' but in DnD it refers to a kind of summoning magic. Dwarven mages are unlikely but not impossible.
Re: My god. Now I see it. Thanks for this. It does kinda explain everything. We also know that Lorek betrayed his stone and while I had always assumed it was do with betrayal of his race and abandoning Dwarven culture some way I never realized it could possibly mean that he chose chose magic over technology. I had always assumed "abjurer" meant just that he was betrayer of dwarven philosophy or race, since the actual meaning of that word is to renounce or reject something.
