Coronavirus and me and you

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Smuel, Apr 4, 2020.

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  1. Smuel

    Smuel Well-Known Member

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    You wouldn't just move one piece at a time though. Each turn, you would move every piece on the board once, and those moves are what get written down and then resolved.

    Evading capture isn't an issue - in fact I'd say that exact feature is one of the things I like about the simultaneous move system - at least in a game where the goal is to control territory. With chess the goal is to take the other pieces, so maybe it's more of a problem there.

    The right of way issue only arises in chess because in the regular game any piece can take any other. A pawn can take a queen if it's the pawn's turn to move.
    In a simultaneous version you could have a ranking system where e.g. the queen beats anything, a rook beats anything except a queen, etc. Though now we're starting to get away from chess, and also that makes the queen unstoppable, except versus another queen were we're back to the original problem. So now the game is broken. Good job, Dark Elf.

    You could probably come up with a method of fixing it if you tried hard enough though.

    The REAL issue with simultaneous turns is - what happens if two pieces (or armies in Shogun, fleets in BOTF) move to each other's positions on the same turn? Do they pass each other invisibly? Do you randomly pick one to have "moved first", and fight a battle at the other's location?

    My current preferred solution is - the units meet in the middle and fight a battle in a generic midpoint battle map. Whoever wins then proceeds on to where they were going. You can still have the option to retreat or abort the move when presented with the midpoint battle dialog. If both armies retreat, they end up back where they began. If one retreats and the other attacks, it defaults back to what would have happened if one hadn't moved in the first place.

    I believe Shogun kind of fudged this though. The AI got to move after you'd made your moves, and so could basically cheat. It wasn't super obvious that it was doing it though. You'd still sometimes get multiple armies landing in the same province in one turn, and if you tried to take a province that had no defenders, it would often just let you take it rather than move an inferior force in there to try to defend it. It would also retreat if your army could obviously beat it. Part of the art of mastering the game was to field a force just big enough that you could beat the AI on the battlefield, but not so big that it would give up the province instead of fighting you. Because if it does that then you know it's going to merge the retreating army with another one and come back later with twice the numbers.
     
  2. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Which is why I suggested determining the winner by rolling die. Yeah, so things come down to random chance then, but that kinda fits since simultaneous chess would be a game of calculated risk anyway. If need be you could balance this with modifiers, of course. There is only one queen after all, so maybe that particular Oppenheimer piece should get a +1 to her rolls to give her a bit more heft than the filthy peasant levies who are more numerous.
     
  3. Smuel

    Smuel Well-Known Member

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    Has it been a week and a half yet? Oh boy.

    So, I've been playing Shogun 2 some more, and I'm back to being annoyed again. Here is the latest reason why:

    In the original, each province landscape was distinctive. Totomi was completely flat. Shinano had epic hills. Owari had a river with two crossing points. Mutsu had a large forested area. Kai had a central valley with an impassable edge at one end. Yamashiro (I think?) had layered rice paddies. Wakasa was on the coast, with a large beach area. Compare this to Shogun 2, where every battle is fought on a map that has small lumpy hills with trees on top of them. The landscape is basically the same every time.

    Also, in the original, holding the high ground was a tangible advantage. Archers were more effective the higher up they were. Dislodging an enemy from a hill was quite a challenge. However, in Shogun 2 it doesn't make any difference to range or damage whether your archers are higher up or not. An enemy archer unit can stand at the bottom of a steep slope and inflict equal casualties on your archer unit at the top.

    So basically, aside from "cavalry doesn't do well in forests" the entire terrain factor has been removed from the game. Never mind choosing a force appropriate for a given province, or careful positioning of archers, just send a load of spear units to charge straight at the enemy. BATTLE TACTICS R BORING ANYWAY LOL

    Then there's a load of minor inconveniences that make the game seem unfinished:

    The fast forward in the battle map only goes up to 4x speed. In Shogun you could speed things up at least 10x, which made watching the enemy walk across the entire map to reach you a lot more bearable.

    When showing enemy moves on the campaign map, the map view will randomly rotate, throwing off your sense of where things are happening.

    If you tell a ship to sail to the other end of Japan, it will happily stray into deep water on the way, suffering attrition. So you have to tediously micro-manage a long journey every turn, even if you are at peace with everyone and there shouldn't be any need.

    If you queue up several units to be built, and then next turn decide you don't want them and unqueue them, it says "This unit is in the process of being recruited" for each one, even though they're not - you're just unqueuing them. So you have to dismiss the same misleading dialog box several times in a row.

    One of the loading screen tips tells you about "Shinobi". There are no shinobi in the game. That's the original Shogun.

    If you save, and then while still in the menu, click on exit, it says "If you quit now you will lose all your unsaved progress." I LITERALLY JUST SAVED

    I know those last few are completely trivial, but when combined with all the other things I've mentioned, they contribute to the feeling that none of the developers have tried playing their own game. And certainly none of them understood what made the original so good. It's all been thrown away in a mad rush to provide MOAR EYE CANDY.

    What I still don't get is that most people online rate Shogun 2 as the best one. They even say "It's the most polished." And if you look up Shogun 2 on Wikipedia, at the bottom of the page it say that it won a BAFTA for Best Strategy Game of 2011.

    Best strategy game.

    Best STRATEGY game.

    BEST STRATEGY GAME??!!

    Were there no other strategy games released that year?
     
    Dark Elf likes this.
  4. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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