Chukka

How long ago was this? That also matters.

 

The cuts and bruises were worse than what a five year old could do to themselves, when all of this started. I don't get them anymore.
One of the strangest things that attacked me was a small boy with a piece of wood nailed deeply into his forehead...damn, was that weird.
Alright, now, you're using physics to explain away things we can't comprehend. That works on a lot of things, and may even work on what we describe. But why would the stranger explanation not work (as long as it's simple)? Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor?
It basically says that all things being equal, the simplest solution is the best one.
By using physics, sometimes you're actually adding extra variables by trying to rationalize something. We've all done it.
It could've been a person, or maybe some air was rapidly expanding (read; exploding) due to heat, or there was a lot of misty swamp gas that condensed due to the air temperature at that exact moment.
Well, ok, but why was a person there? What caused the heat? The swamp gas actually seems more feasible, but it's really only valid in areas with or near swamps.
Why would a person's mind not persist after they died? Through sheer willpower, a person who didn't want to leave could manifest in some way that isn't explained by normal physics.
Compare our three dimensional world to one with only two dimensions. Say we interfere with that world by jabbing a pencil through it, or shaking it up and down. The creatures in that world would not be able to explain the situation, mostly because they only understand their lives on their plane. Hell, if one of them said, "Maybe there's something big shaking our world!" everyone would laugh in their face. What could do such a thing?
We might be in the same situation with any sort of spiritual occurrance. Maybe they exist in a place with more than three dimensions, and it's why we normally can't see anything. Think hypercubes.
I think you might have a problem, Wolfsbane, in that you don't want to know about this. You don't want to have to ask those questions.
Regardless, all internet arguments are silly.

 

There is a saying:

There are people who belief before they seeing, and you have people who want to see before believing it.

PS: I hope this the right grammar.

 

Swamp gas? I thought you said you live in PA. Where the hell is all this swamp gas coming from? Now if you lived down in the Florida Keys, ok then.

 

By sheer willpower. By sheer willpower. Please read up on how our brain works, especially the part about it not working when we're dead. Then read up un the concept of "will", and realize that willpower heavily depends on our ability to think, i.e our brain. Without the brain, no thinking. And, without no thinking, no will. Tough one.

You say that the simple solutions are the best, and then you start talking about possible dimensions of reality. Why, you might ask, can't I imagine a world in 2D? Because reality has never shown any sign of itself working in 2D. Do you really think that it is simpler to say that an unknown force not bound by the forces of physics materialized into our world (possibly from a 2D world) and altered it, then to say that whatever happened happened because of explainable freak-phenomenons? The simplest explanation for death would simply be that people die and stay dead, wouldn't it?

And about your memory of nightmares, scars and bruises; do you know what a five-year old is capable of? A fucking lot. Did you know that we, when conscious, only use a fifth of our physical powers? When unconscious, the body can release a strength five times as great as when we're awake. I'd say that you, when dreaming, very well could've inflicted those "wounds" on yourself.

Again, I give you Russel's Teapot, or the Spaghetti Saucer. Both of these examples exist to make people realize that the burden of evidence isn't on the nonbeliever, but the believer. If you believe in something, then prove it by means that others can comprehend. If you can't, and somebody explains your situation in a way comprehendible to everyone else, then you might have to accept that you were wrong. In the case of your dream, my theory (well-proven if I might say so myself) is that your dream was nothing more than a bad dream (or series of dreams).

 

Ok Wolfie - First off, let me thank you for providing a great way to aleviate the boredom of a paper-work day. I got a sneak-peek at your reply while I was at work and during the day began to imagine possible situations that would allow what I saw to happen without any paranormal influences and at least get close to Occum's Razor.

Here's the two that sounds the most plausible:

Wolf Creek - In 1975, the Paint Creek Dam was either finished or real close to being so. That meant that soon the state boys would be going around, buying up, and then demolishing every building that would be in the flooded area of the new lake.

Whoever the fellow was that actually owned the abandoned place on Wolf Creek knows about this and decides to go over there and see if there's anything worth salvaging before he sells. Lets say that his working farm is on the next road over but there is a field that butts up to the Wolf Creek place. Rather than drive all the way around to get to the old house, he just cuts across the field, hops the fence and comes in through the back door.

Well, on that day he's wearing dark clothes. It's a warm day, but he's going into a place that's been sitting empty for decades. So it's long sleeves and gloves to help protect against any spiders that might get on him. He's looking around, the place is a complete ruin, heavy mold everywhere, and as he steps into the front room, he looks out through the window frame and sees four long-haired, scraggelly-assed teenage city boys on the other side of the road - And they're staring long and hard at the place.

He remains motionless for a while, waiting to see what they are going to do. His head was in the full shadow of the darkened room and his clothing, being a slightly lighter color than the dark interior, was just barely discernable through the window frame.

Well, hell! Either we got some punk kids wanting to check out a haunted house or they're looking for some place where they can sit around an' smoke their dope. (It was the 70's) Either way, it's time for them to go!

So he turns, walks over to the door, opens it, then takes a moment to brush away a black widow that's heading up his glove. Just as he's about to step outside, the kids' car starts up and they go high-tailing it out of there like the devil was after them.

With a quiet smile and a thought of "Damn kids....", he closes the door and returns to his examination of the place.

Orville Hollow - I have no idea if this is really possible, but it sounds like one of those "Strange But True" things you hear about in the natural world.

Southern Ohio has coal fields scattered here and there, and where there's coal, there's usually natural gas. Now if, during the last ice age, the weight of the glacier cracked the cap-stone layer that held the gas in check, the gas would then begin making its way to the surface through thousands of feet of overlying deposits (sandstone and such) and finally passing through the water table before reaching the air. Let's say there's a small bog right there and the gas bubbles up through it.

If the area where this seep occurs happens to be a depression, then with the natural gas suspended in water vapor, which keeps it close to the ground, it could reach a concentration that would cause a feeling of suffocation in anyone who entered the depression.

Now, if the atmospheric conditions are just right, and there are just the right amount of thermals coming up from the sun-warmed surrounding area, small, slow-moving vortexes can form over this bog. The suspended gas is gathered into these vortexes and condensed into a vertical column. The gas column soon reaches a concentration to make it visable. These columns would then be moved around the area of the bog by the action of the vortexes. Here's the vaguely human-like misty shapes that were slowly moving around.

The gas nearest the top of the column would dissappate but would be replenished by the newly released gas from the bog. Thus, at a distance, it would give the illusion of being uneffected by any breeze that was blowing.

By sheer luck, four boys playing hookey happened to find the place right at the perfect time of day, with the absolute perfect weather conditions to witness this phenomenon.

Well, what do you think?

 

Wolfsbane, here's something you might like to see, mainly because it involves functioning members of society who have either very small brains, or no brain at all;

http://www.fatemag.com/issues/2000s/2008-01article4.html

That's right, there are people who don't have brains and actually think!
Now, I won't doubt the necessity of the brain, considering it controls everything our body does. But if people are able to live and participate in our society without them...well, maybe our emotions can exist without them too. Hell, maybe my "will beyond the grave" thing isn't total bullshit. I don't know, I just found this by accident.

Also, you misread my post before yours. I was saying things would come down from a 4th or 5th dimension, maybe higher. How would something in the 2nd dimension know how to deal with us?
And I'm not talking about people dieing. That's simple. I'm talking about people who are already dead.
But what happened? Back when we were doing your Die Hafen roleplay, you actually had a religion. Or you lied about it to keep one of my posts out of the story. What's happening right now? Are you arguing the counterpoint just for the sake of argument, or did you change your mind?

 

That's what makes it funny.
Yes, you're right about a brain with more convolutions being more dense with knowledge, especially since a smooth brain has no way to connect with the meninges or form its own networks, but these people just have brain stems with a bit of neurotically active fat sitting on the top. And cerebro-spinal fluid.

Look, guys, I'm not an idiot. I'm just bored with rational thought. I have nothing to look forward to in my day to day life;
I live at home, I have no money, and I just found out that my dreams (I'm talking career aspirations) will probably never take fruit. One thing I'm definitely guilty of here is trying to change anyone's mind on this forum. That is definitely stupid.
Oh, and my Cordoba is going to die.
What the hell is wrong with choosing the more fantastic? It's a hell of a lot less boring than just saying, "Oh, it was the wind. People just rot when you bury them."
I don't know about any of you, but I love thinking that maybe my dead uncle is watching over me. I think that'd be great, knowing that a relative, who was taken from my family by a drunk driver, is still doing his thing and watching over everyone.
I know there's a high probability that none of what happened in my dreams actually happened, or that dead people never come back. But I think you guys are just being silly by not allowing me to imagine a more exciting world where I can still see people who don't need to breathe, or where I have an epic battle with the forces of hell while I sleep. And, if anyone ever asks me what I dream about, I have an awesome story to tell!
I thought you guys were more creative than that! Am I offended that all I'm seeing is the word "no"? Honestly, yeah. But it's more like pity than offense...you guys dropped your soap and are a bit too scared to pick it up again.
And, looking at my own beliefs, I don't believe in anything supernatural because I can't think of anything else, it's mainly because I want to believe there is something else.
But I swear I will link to the thread where Wolfsbane described his religion if I can't find any more proof of these brainless people who aren't just drooling hydrocephalics. I just know the guy who published the research initially was a Dr. Lorber, and he had an article in science magazine in 1980 describing his research, as well as a PBS special a few years ago.

 

Ouch. Someone needs to lay off the Dragonlance books for a little while and come back to reality.

 

The coacalina.

Tolkien used the word to mean "Light of the house" or soul (Elvish).

Way back when, I found a obscure reference to it as a soul who remained on Earth to be a "guardian angel" for those he or she cared about.

I like that idea.

 

I'm sorry to have offended you; that was not my intention. My intention is to wake up people from the sleep of superstition, and make them realize that the world is a beautiful place even without the transcendent. Make them realize that this drug of theirs is keeping them down, hiding them from the amazing truth and awesomeness of reality. What I'm saying is that there's no need to believe that these transcendent things are real.

That said, there's nothing wrong in drifting away in fantasies about them. I'm not saying that you can't wish for these things to be real, or that you shouldn't concern yourself with imaginative things such as ghosts or demons or whatever. Those things make great stories, and have their place in literature and art. The place where they haven't got a place, until proven otherwise, is scientific debates about reality.

Also, you asked me about my previous beliefs? Yes, I believed in some kind of god. I over-exaggerated in the Die Hafen discussion-thread, but I was indeed a believer, of sorts. Then, I grew up and changed my mind. I was challenged by some of my friends about my beliefs, and during our discussions I more and more realized that there simply wasn't anything I needed with faith in the supernatural. I've read numerous debates, essays and articles about what religion and faith in the supernatural has done to our world, and I realized sometime along the road that I had to give this silly superstition up. I could've gone on and on, arguing that the possibility couldn't be ignored, but at the same time the knowledge clawed at my heart, wanting me to accept the truth. And so I did.

And you know what? I've never been as free and happy. I'm not afraid of the dark anymore. I don't wonder why god doesn't love me when bad things happen, and I don't feel obliged to give thanks to some power when I top that score, or win that prize, because I know that it was I who did it by my own ability, and not with the help of some unknown power. There is so much less to be afraid of, and so much more to be intrigued by. The world is a much more complex and wonderful place.

That is what happened to my faith. I realized that it was keeping me down from reaching my true potential. It was keeping me scared and insecure. No more.

 

I hate to say it, but I think that's how my atheistic tendencies got started. Since I was young i was always taught "God is great, God is good...", don't sin, don't even think of sinning because that too is a sin, always give God thanks for what you have and what you've accomplished, pray, pray, pray every day. Back then, I was sick of having to give God credit for all the good days I had, and not being able to blame him for all the bad ones. I think if I knew then what I know now about the the history and interpretation of this religion, I might have been more tolerant, but like Wolfsbane said, abandoning that way of life has been seriously liberating. I do sometimes worry about the consequences in the long run (I'll most likely go to Hell for refusing God half way through my life), but I'm not torturing myself over it anymore. Besides, I'm eyeball deep in a life of science and evidence and facts. I don't think I could turn my back on my current matrix of beliefs just like that. It would take some good hard persuasion to get me to change back. Strangely enough, though, I'm always on the lookout that one thing.

Now ghosts and demons and vampires; that's another thing. There's a part of me that wants badly to believe in them strictly because of their romantic/fantasy appeal. But the other part of me refuses to much for the same reasons that I don't believe in any gods. I think if you believe in God (any god really), you're accepting the fact that forces outside our own universe can influence us. In this regard, maybe ghosts, demons, vampires, etc are part of those outside influences. I don't discredit anyone who does believe in these things. I'm only concerned that people's beliefs remain consistant. For instance: You believe in ghosts and demons, but don't believe in any gods. Why?? That doesn't seem consistant to me. That just seems like someone who chooses to believe what they believe based on how "cool" they think something is, not what they have truely experienced or been taught in life.

 

There has been scientific researches about this.

Some patient were divided into two diffrent groups, both of them being prayed to heal.

One of the group was told that there was a bunch of people praying for them, the other not.

The group that was unaware of the praying was healing on a normal rate.

The intresting is that the group that had been told that people were praying, acutally recovered at a SLOWER rate than normal. The explanation to this was the pressure. They knew that people were expecting them to recover quickly, and the pressure this gave them made them recover slower.

 

I came clean because I don't have any fuel for the argument anymore. I never taped myself while I was sleeping, nor did I take any photos or leave active cameras on in my house to check for anything surreal.
The EVP's I have? They're on cassettes. I don't own any recording equipment good enough to transfer those to a digital format.
But I want so much to think that life isn't where it ends, because just coming to a stop after 80 years (or more)? Dammit, that's boring! I think I believe for the wrong reasons, but it seems better to me than nothing at all.
A lot of people who strongly believes in God and an afterlife mainly do so out of fear.

"What will God do to me if I stop believing? (add fear-driven example here)"

I, on the other hand, believe because I'm afraid that there's nothing else. Am I wrong? Perhaps.

The biggest step for me right now is admitting I had hardly anything to stand on during the argument in the first place! Wolfsbane, you were miles ahead of me on that one.

Oh, and faith healing works by manipulating a mental block.
"By the grace of God, you can walk once more!"
"Hallelujah!"
These people think they're paralyzed, but they aren't. Their bodies move in their sleep, or at other times when they wouldn't consciously notice. It's why their muscles don't atrophy. And when the healer finally says those magic words, they believe that they can walk, and they do! It's a miracle of psychology!
Now, one that I want to see is the curing of scoliosis or maybe the removal of a malignant tumor.

 

You think it would be boring if your life ended at the age of 80? I cannot say that I am sure, but I believe that when you have come to that point, you will have another opinion. I believe that we can grow tired of life, in the same way as we grow tired of a certain kind of food or a song, but on a much grander scale. I think the belief in a possible afterlife scares the shit out of people, for a number of reasons; "where will I go?", "what will it be like?", "did I do anything wrong?" or any such question. Believing that death is indeed the end is, for me at least, reassuring. There is nothing more to worry about. No qualifications I must fill, no merits I must uphold. When my time comes, whenever it may be, I will not have anything to worry about. Sure, if I die young I will regret having to leave everybody I love, and I will regret not having done all those things I could've done. But at the same time, I will know that I led an as good life as I could, considering the circumstances, and that I soon won't have to worry about it anymore.

When believers talk about the afterlife, I sometimes get the felling that they're looking forward to it more then actually living their present lives. Especially christians and muslims seem to have this fix-idea of getting on the fast train to paradise, leaving this "rotten" earthbound life behind. I can't help to not just feel sympathetic for them, but also get angry with them. How can they so easily abandon this greatest gift of all which is life, for something close to a fairytale? How naïve are people, really? Or, rather, how can institutions all over the world glorify death and the afterlife more than life itself? Since I turned my back on the supernatural, I've only found more and more controversial and questionable things about it.

Now, I digress, but I hope that you got my picture.

 

I can completely see your point, but I know that it wouldn't work for me. My life seems to be screaming past me to the point that I wonder if I have enough time to do anything.
Like you, I don't understand how people can be eager to leave their bodies and their lives. I love the friends I've made, and I hope I can remain a good friend to them. I can't imagine a point where I'd get tired of seeing friendly faces as I did my daily routine. But I also wonder if there's room after I'm done living to allow me to work even more towards my goals. However, I can't seem to see myself as anything but greedy, hoping for these things. It's all about what I want, and what I want to do.
Maybe I don't even want to live forever. If I can keep healthy through my life, maybe all I want is a few more years. But still, I seem to have the whole "live a good life" thing burned into my brain. It's almost a mindset of mine to help anyone who needs it, regardless of how much I hate most people who aren't myself. I honestly don't worry where I'm going, because wherever I end up is where I belong.

 

MY unicorn is quite visible. Nor is it pink. However, he has a second-cousin who's invisible and pink, so if you see that nutter again, tell him that Alred would like you to that unicorn hello.

Also, the point which I'm working to make is the fact that people believe what they want to believe,* and trying to change that makes you either a Christian or a Nazi. I live in the Northwest, and went to school with Ken Hutcherson's daughter. That man (Ken) has such a complete lack of capacity to understand reality that it amazes me. He's convinced that gay's're a crime to society, and should be wiped off the face of this earth. He's also working to get several of my favorite teachers fired for standing up to him. Asshole. So while I disagree with his standpoint, it's his reality. He's living it. Arguing with him accomplishes absolutely nothing.

* I took the non-argumenative route. Blow me.