Chukka

Oh yeah? Where've you gotten this info from? TV shows? Stories? Have so called "seers" or "paranormal" people deemed the place as haunted?

And when you were there, you probably already knew that the place was haunted, yes? You can imagine the rest. You saw something (or nothing) in the wind (could've been vapors or smoke) and your brain instantly told you that those things were ghosts, or things that "looked" like "shapes of people", based on the fact that you already knew that the place was haunted.

No, all such nonsence simply comes from our fear of the unknown, and the increadible power of our brain.

 

I think your brain is lacking this incredible power you describe if you can't see, just by a quick look at the world around you, that there is more to it than meets the eye.

 

Isn't that what Wolfsbane just said?

That what rroyo thought he saw, isn't necessarily what it is.

He think he saw ghost, but that dosn't mean it acutally was ghosts, does it?

 

rroyo, what for kind of ghost stories, are behind this haunted places?.

 

Not necessarily, but does your skepticism mean that it wasn't a ghost?

 

Of course not. But then again, have science found any kind of evidence or possible explanations for ghosts? No? How puzzling. Have science proved that, in most cases, the supernatural has turned out to be nothing more than superstition? Yes.

A good example to ridicule the idea of ghosts is delusionate patients in psychiatric hospitals. Some of them claim that they see trolls who want them to kill other people. Others claim that they have seen and actually petted invisible flying pigs with pink unicorn-horns. You say, in turn, that you've seen dead people materialize in the wind, and that these people are particularly hostile towards the living for unknown reasons. What, then, is the difference? You are both obviously hallucinating, but you're not the one who constantly drools who can't take care of him/herself. To believe in ghosts is as silly as believing in invisible, pink unicorns.

But then again, we can't prove that invisible pink unicorns don't exist, can we? Don't you see how ridiculous this gets? The same thing goes for all transcendent things; no, we can't prove that anything doesn't exist. But then again, the burden of proof doesn't lie with the unbeliever, does it? If you want to prove or argue about the existence of something, then you must be able to produce some kind of evidence, or a credible theory, to strengthen your point. See "Russell's Teapot" to get the main idea. Also check out the church of the spaghetti saucer.

 

The evidence that some people are crazy and hallucinate can hardly 'ridicule' the perceptions of sane people. I happen to agree with you that the vast majority of these cases can be wholly explained by science, however I think you go to far in your statements. As Japes said, there is more than meets the eye in this world. You think that just by looking harder you can see, but in some ways, it only makes you more blind.

 

Why can they not? They have the same kind of brain, although malfunctional in some places. It is still the same fantasies, still the same illusions. These people have, in most cases, actually seen what they claim to have seen with their own eyes. The truth, however, is that it was just their mind playing tricks on them.

Of course. Our petty sences are far from able to percept everything that goes on around us. But then again, that is no reason to involve anything that is "beyond" our physics, or "supernatural". It is far more probable that, for example, Rryro's brain played tricks on him when he saw those "shapes", in the light of him knowing that place to be "haunted", than that ghosts actually live there.

Then, to say that "there are more things in this world that meets the eye" is just a cheap escape from having to prove anything. If you want transcendent things like gods and ghosts to be seriously accepted by scientists, then I suggest that you begin to bring more proof than your personal conviction and experiences.

 

I seem to have opened a rather large can of worms. Oh well.

The date was late September 1975. Third week, maybe. I remember it being warm enough that afternoon where I burned my forearm on the car door. And there was a light breeze coming from the west.

There was me, Charlie Skidmore, Randy Zink, and Tom Brown. We were in our junior year and Charlie had just gotten his '70 Mustang running. None of us felt like being cooped up in a classroom, so we piled into the Mustang and took off before first period.

Yeah, we wound up down around Bainbridge, and we'd all heard about those two places and decided to have a look for ourselves. The old house at Wolf Creek was the first one we went to and it was late morning when we got there.

That place had the usual history of a man going mad and killing his family, then himself sometime in the 1930's. (I can't remember the date anymore. Sorry.) It was several months later that the bodies were discovered and the ghost stories began. All the stories we'd heard about that place insisted that a cold rush would go through you and you'd smell like rotted meat for days. Not being brave enough to actually enter the place, we watched the house from the road.
It took a while, but all four of us spotted a lighter patch of darkness in the frame (where the window used to be). A trick of the light? Maybe. I'm positive it wasn't a reflection from inside - I'd helped tear down too many old houses and I've seen what reflections look like. And the Mustang was in the wrong place for sunlight to be reflected into the window frame.

I'll tell you this: It was shaped kind of like an arch - without any kind of head. There was no gradual blending of the lighter area with the darker surrounding. Whatever we we staring at seemed to stare at us for a while, then rotated!, becoming thinner in appearence, and then moved to our left. Then the door of the house - which was still on its hinges and closed - suddenly opened.
That's when our nerve broke, and we all piled back into the car. Charlie had the Mustang started and moving before my ass hit the seat and I wound up getting a nasty pinch on my right calf from the car door.

BTW: There was no - repeat - no gust of strong wind. Something opened that door from the inside. Draw your own conclusions.

A couple hours later, we worked up enough courage to go have a peek at someplace else that was said to be haunted. The cursed ground in Orville Hollow. The story goes that even the Indians who used to live around there considered the place to be evil. The locals swore that even in the daytime you could see spirits moving around there and anyone who entered that area would feel like he was suffocating.

Well - we saw something that day. Now I'm remembering back over thirty years on this, but I think we were about 50 yards away from an area that you normally wouldn't give a second glance to. The entire area, including where we were crouched, was just a field of late-summer dead grass. Except - There was five misty - vaguely human-like shapes moving around. They looked more like thin fog than anything else. The creepy thing was these patches of "fog" were completely uneffected by the light breeze that was blowing. Even to the point of moving against the wind without distortion or effort. BTW: We couldn't tell if the moving grass under those shapes was just the wind or not.
Now, if the "fog" had been distorted or blown away by the wind, I'd be willing to bet it was nothing more than gas from a seep, or maybe even smoke from an coal vein that had caught fire. But they didn't.
Call it whatever you will. I'm positive that wasn't fog, mist, or smoke.
We watched for a while, then crept away. We had kept our distance and they had left us alone. The shapes were still slowly moving around when we left.

Back in Greenfield, we conned somebody into buying us some 6% beer and spent most of the evening telling ourselves how brave we had been.

Folks, you can believe or disbelieve all you want but I lived in too many haunted and "haunted" old houses over the years to have any doubts that ghosts exist. I've heard whispered voices, footsteps, and crying. I've seen a dog repeatedly run to a spot where a child was supposed to be and begin playing with something I couldn't see. I've stepped through cold spots. I've even tracked the source of several "hauntings" and found them to have rational explainations.

It's been over thirty years now, and there's not a doubt one in my mind that what the four of us saw was not natural - and more importantly - not to be messed with.

And I know I wasn't high, drunk, or otherwise mentally incapacitated when we went to those places. Until we got back to Greenfield, Pepsi was the only thing I was drinking.

I'd give you the addresses of the guys who were with me that day, but I'm the only one still alive. Randy died in a car wreck in '79. Tom was murdered for taking a job that a black kid had gotten fired from in '83 or '84, and Charlie died from cancer in 2000.

In case anyone's interested - here's the group photo of the combined '76 and '77 class. This is from my junior yearbook.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o314 ... Fox001.jpg

 

I said right in my post that I had been dreaming, but I woke up with cuts and bruises.
Now, saying I saw something else is ridiculous. When you think of the word, "demon," you think of something frightful and dangerous. It's exactly what I saw.
I was five when I started having those dreams. Have you ever read Dante's Inferno? I got a hold of a copy when I was in highschool, translated because I can't read in Italian. When I saw an image of the seventh level of hell, where Satan resides, I had a bit of a panic attack because it brought a rush of all the dreams I had starting at five. I'm not a religious person, I regret to say. But I saw the same places, and the same things attacked me, as I saw in Dante's Inferno, 11 years after I had started having those damned dreams. You can say I hallucinated as much as you want, but I was dreaming. I wasn't awake. Is it any more credible? No, but you didn't even read the specifics when I had said my piece before.
Now, as for ghosts, My mom's house was most definitely haunted. SHe didn't know it was when she moved in, and didn't find out until years after that point. It's a beautiful house. Well, a mansion. Anyway, 3 people died there, all suicides. My mom saw the butler who used to work there, as well as a woman who lived there long before my grandpa ever bought the place.
She woke up one night and saw the butler hanging from an overhead beam in her room, the attic (I have no idea why she wanted to sleep in the attic. I mean, what the hell?), and she saw the woman one night after she had just laid down to sleep. The woman was wearing the same sort of nightgown as my grandma, so my mom thought she had come up to see if everything was ok. But, the woman kept on walking and ended up going out the window.
As for science;
Take a step back. There is so much that we, as people, don't know about the world, that you shouldn't be able to say so matter-of-factly that nothing spoken of in a transcendental manner is real. You're sitting there, behind your computer desk, trying to tell me my brain is malfunctioning and throwing pictures into my sight. I know what a hallucination is, I hallucinate all the time. I know what a dream is, I do that all the time too.
Thing is, I was in kindergarten, fighting demons in my sleep. Things I had never seen, and only until after years of life experience and research into why I was waking up physically hurt, did I realize what was happening.
I may be stubborn, but having someone so bluntly tell me it never happened is a big slap to the face, and I'd thank you to remember I'm not you, and I don't think like you. I never will. You have your own opinions, that's great! A person without opinions might as well be a doormat. Don't try to change my mind about my own traumatic experiences without having seen what I saw, and don't try to disprove it with science that you're not even using.
Have you ever gone out with a group of people to any haunted place? I have. They're very hit or miss, but I always bring a tape recorder with me (to the sites), and I ask questions. Sometimes I get answers. It's called an EVP recording, and while most of the time when you get the recording it's almost indiscernible, there are a couple that scare the crap out of me.
Now, I'd give an example, but how could I prove it? Anything can be faked. I don't even trust EVP's on ghost hunting websites, simply because they're online. But if you went out with some friends to a few haunted places in your area, you'd be able to find out for yourself.

 

My religious beliefs aside, I've heard too many first and second-hand accounts of demonic oppression and posession to dismiss them as anything but truth. For instance, I've spoken to several trustworthy people who whitnessed a demon posession a few years ago, and their stories line up. I assure you, there was no question in anyone's mind what happened, and it was more than could be written off as wind in the shadows.

 

I don't know why, but each time I read one of your posts that comes right after mine, Japes, it feels like there's a vein of sarcasm driving it.

Eh, whatever.

People have been asking spiritual questions ever since they've been able to settle down in one place for more than a few days at a time. This occurred right around the time people learned how to farm for food, which leads me to believe that farming is responsible for religion. Everyone's got crazy ideas, but if you get enough of those ideas together in one place, some similarities might pop up. It's how all aspects of human culture arise! This might be a little extreme, but if everyone agreed on everything, what purpose would having any one idea serve?
I love learning things. When I go to a library, I always head for the non-fiction section, because most works of fiction won't teach me a thing. I figure that's pretty universal as far as literature goes. But I see things that aren't explained by any type of "logical" thought, and I want to think about that too. That can't be wrong, can it? To banish every thought from my mind that doesn't make sense...well, that doesn't make sense. I want to know as much as I can. Does that mean I'll believe anything I see? Hell no! I put a lot of thought into what I allow to stay in my mind, and I side with what makes the most sense to me at the time. What I've seen in my dreams is a touchy subject, considering it actually touched me. I didn't even remember the worst of it until I started talking about why I was such a screwed up little kid with my family. It'll take a lot of comprehensive research and a great amount of evidence to prove that I wasn't seeing anything in my dreams. I'm sure that's how most people respond to psychological trauma, considering every account of psychological trauma I've read about involves a thorough investigation (patient willing), and a rational conclusion of events thereof.
My point in revealing my dreams was that I was attacked by something, but later in my life the attacks would stop at the arrival of something (two somethings, omg). It was normally a warm presence, and it blinded me each time. I've come to understand that the second presence may be what most people would call God, but I'm not ready to make that leap. For one thing, why would God personally stop something like that? Aren't there subordinates that do that sort of thing? I've not seen everything I need to see yet, to fully understand my situation.
Don't misunderstand, please. I don't mean to say I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say anything referencing good or evil. I just end up going on a rant about the bad part whenever someone says nothing happened to me.

 

There are many proves, that all the religions borrows elements from each other.

 

Rryro; there are a LOT of things that could explain your experience with the hous/es. Just a simple example; can you prove that nobody was inside the house at the time you and your friends was there? Far fetched, you might say, but not as far as trying to explain it with "it can't be explained". Freak phenomenons happen all the time, and they never have anything to do with spirituality, just physics.

Gross, you say you were attacked in your dream, and that you woke up with "cuts and bruises". How deep were those cuts? How bad were those bruises? It is pretty possible that they were self-inflicted, rather than stigmatized by demons in your dream. People do crazy stuff in their dreams all the time. Some people have baths in their sleep, while others kill people. This has, again, nothing to do with spirituality and can thus be explained by scientific methods. Hurting yourself in your sleep is not really as extraordinary as killing someone else, don't you agree? Something tells me that, since you've told yourself over the years that demons inflicted these "wounds" upon you, your memory of them has been altered to something worse than it originally was. That's natural, and happen to a lot of people.


In conclusion; there is more to the world than meets the eye. You thought you saw ghosts, while in realty what happened was that your brain simulated something that looked like ghosts based on the information it got from your eyes and ears (and so on). It is foolish to try to explain the unknown by describing it as "spiritual", "transcendent" or "beyond this world". If there are ghosts, then it is just as probable that there are blue pigs flying about in our atmosphere, invisible (of course) to the human eye.


NOTE to Japes: Demonic possession? You mean, like, drooling loonies or schitzophrenic people? How far back into the Dark ages are you, really?

 

Probably because you've come to expect nothing but sarcasm from me. I wasn't being sarcastic this time though.

Think what you want, the event I referred to was witnessed by about 150 people and involved a lot more than just a 'drooling loonie.' I won't recount the particulars unless you really care to hear them.

 

Tell me more about this case of possesion, I do care to know this.

 

What DE said. Recount the particulars. And please, link sources like videos or photos as well.

One quick question, though; were you there, and were those 150 vitnesses all believers? It matters.

 

Very well, but I have to go to work right now. I also need to talk to my friends who were there, because I wasn't and I don't want to leave anything out. I haven't heard the story for some time now. To my knowledge, nobody there had a camera. It happened at church camp.