Calis does the Upgrade Thing

retard, to be honest, I've never tried ME. From everything I've heard though, it is the tool of the Devil! The Devil!

I think the fact that you pretty much can't buy it anymore gives away the fact that it's really really shit. It's like Win98SE with some fancy extras and a whole heap of useless crap which fucks it up. Yes, I'm still using Win98SE because I'm too lazy to install Win2k at home. Plus it's better for my gaming .

 

... dit-dit-dit .... dit-dit-dit ... late breaking irony ...

Lysa and I have been trying to shoehorn a decent comp into my budget all night, and wrestling with Dell "You gotta have a monitor" sales people. Well, they all foist XP upon you (not that I think XP is bad, but it is the only option they offer.

After checking up, we realised that Lysa's comp being 2000 would be a little tricky to LAN with a new XP "I wanna be the file server" comp. If we'd left it as ME, there would be no problem. I ... just ... can't ... win!!

 

Sheriff, I mean it handling the internet, doesn't have much to do with the browser. Get ME plug it in the internet and watch it crash over and over in multiple angles.

 

Dammit, Milo, you've opened a bloody powder keg. Now I am not satisfied with the Dell (partly cos of the XP-2000 LAN thing, I admit) and have managed to get (I think) a set of components into my budget. It means I stick with 2000 and don't get a little of useless stuff I wouldn't use (DVD and CDRW) and also get tor re-use old components like I wanted (floppy, kb, mouse, modem, etc). Dell wouldn't have let me unspec those.

The trouble is, I'm now in murky water. I know just enough to feel vaguely uneasy, even with your previous advice. Here's what I've found for myself:

- Chieftec Dragon full tower case (ATX, 350PSU, blah blah).
- P4 2.0 Gb 512 Northwood
- 512 Generic (yuck!) DDR SDRAM (PC2700)
- Asus P4S533 i845 mboard
- Asus Geforce 4 Ti4400
- Soundblaster Live 5.1

and I now have coupla questions:

- Should I be buying RIMMs instead of DIMMs?
- Should I be trying to get an i850 mboard (maybe Abit)?
- Anything in particular I should be looking for on the case? They all look the same to me (cept for the obvious USB/USB2 port differences, so I don't know what to look for.

 

Heh, you're assuming that you won't be speaking with Dell tech support for hours on end trying to get them to send out a tech. That's the last line for them, the one thing that costs them the most amount of money. Tech support will run you through the paces, "is your monitor plugged in?" "are you logged into windows?" etc. until "well, I can't help you, please hold" until you're on to tier 2 techs, so on and so on until finally, finally they agree to send out a tech.

I've heard that it's an Intel special, Dell proprietary. Which works out well because the PSU they use is also proprietary (and a piece of shit, to boot). If it's a newer P4, then it most likely has the 845e chipset.

I know! Tee Hee. It's actually a pretty stock "geek" system, or a collection of parts that alot of nerds have also built their systems around because of lack of conflicts, price, and performance. I have absolutely no complaints with it. Slick as pussy.

What's your current system like? Rather than getting an all new computer that is a compromise, maybe you could upgrade your current one?

Not if you're going with a pre-built comp, you won't. Also, 150 pounds sounds like a lot for XP... Is this for the retail version? If you're already running 2k or 98, you can save a ton of dough and get the Upgrade version of XP. All it does is ask you to insert your old Windows disc to verify that you own a copy, then it'll go ahead and do a full install. No need to install it "over" you're old one.

Or you could save some dough by buying OEM.

From what I've read, there isn't much of a performance increase (or hit) when going from 2k to XP. XP is just slicker, newer. It also takes some optimizing to cut out all the uneeded shit, stuff like turning off some of the useless eye candy and turning off uneeded services.

The main reason I went with XP over 2k (I had both options available), was mainly for gaming. XP seems to have less problems running games than 2k. It also has Win98 compatibility mode. I haven't had to use that yet since all the games I've tried run fine on XP. I'll also echo Jinxed in regards to stability. It's like a fucking revelation after putting up with Win98 for so long. Win2000 is pretty much the same kernel, though, so you probably won't see much difference there.

Anyway... If you do go with the Dell, they're gonna force XP on you. As a form of silent protest, you can install it on Lysa's comp too thereby sticking it to the man. Can't go into the "how's" of it (don't want Calis to get in trouble with his host), suffice it to say, it's easily done.

 

Ahh, goddamit! It took me so long to type that last post that you guys snuck in a bunch of new stuff.

Ok, I'd save some dough and get either a 1.8a or a 1.6a. If you get a 1.6a Northwood, you're virtually guaranteed an overclock to 2.13ghz. Guaran-fucking-teed. With a 1.8a you're very likely to hit 2.4ghz, but there are accounts of people who haven't been able to. The overhead in these processors is really really good. Really good. If you're queasy about o/c'ing, let me just say that there's no physical adjustment you need to make. There's no way for Intel to know that you fucked it up. Not that that happens very often anyway. These chips run cool, and if you're "only" going for 2.13ghz out of a 1.6 rather than 2.4ghz+, it's very unlikely that you'll need to increase voltage. Electron migration from increased voltage and high temps are what fucks up CPUs. That and chipping/crushing the core when you put on the heat sink; Something you won't have to worry about unless you're going with an AMD.

At these clocks, the front side bus is at 133mhz, the same speed as the newer "b" Northwood CPUs. So in essence, my 1.8ghz "a" Northwood, became a 2.4ghz "b" Northwood with one Bios adjustment.

Anyway...

The case you chose looks pretty good. I would (and did) go with an Antec because it comes with an excellent power supply. Chieftec and Antec cases are made by the same company, they just have different PSUs. From my research, Antec/Heroichi Corp (same thing) and Sparkle put out quality PSUs. Enlight is also good, if noisy. They don't give the best cooling, either. Enermax is supposed to be good, but I've read that alot of their line voltages aren't very stable; Something that you might never notice or something that bugs the shit out of you every day due to random reboots.

Don't skimp on RAM. Save some cash and go with DDR. Get Samsung PC2700. If you can spend a few extra bucks, get some Corsair PC3200. You're guaranteed 400mhz memory there. I'd stay away from OCZ, Kingston, KingMax.

Regarding the mobo. The Asus P4S533 isn't an 845 chipset, it's an SIS 645dx chipset. Don't let the off-brand chipset scare you. This is a quality, stable board for a great price. The only thing it lacks is USB 2 support (which you can fix with a cheapo PCI card if/when you need USB2 functionality), RAID, and PCI/AGP divider locks.

Regarding the GeForce 4, I'd say go with the cheapest one you can find that's based off the reference design. If the Asus is at a good price go for it, but don't let the Asus name steer you away from something cheaper.

Regarding the Soundblaster, I'd say hold off on this. Reason being that the onboard sound on the P4S533 is very good. It uses the Cmedia chip which already provides for 5.1 digital. It's the exact same chip used in the Fortissimo sound cards. Alot of people shy away from "onboard shit", but I think this is an outdated concept. This is no AC97 audio codec that pops and crackles all the time. And with CPUs being as powerful as they are now, the CPU load for using onboard sound is really negligible.

Regarding RIMMS or DIMMS... Go with DIMMS. It's true that Rambus will get you the top performance, but good DDR is right up there. Not to mention that the mobo will be $50-$100 bucks cheaper than an 850 mobo.

I can't speak from personal experience, but reading about ABITs problems were enough to scare me away from them. I wanted a stable, problem free install, so I didn't want to risk getting an expensive board that alot of people have had trouble with.

Now regarding the case, I'd break it down something like this. If you're willing to spend some dough to get a decent case, get an Antec. I got the Plus660b and I'm totally happy with it. It's like a $100 bucks, though. If you want something cheaper, definitely check out something from Evercase. Let me dig up a model number... Something from the E4252 series. Over here, they can be had for $25 or so without the PSU. $50 with a 300w Sparkle. Good deal. Highly rated, no sharp edges, front USB ports, etc.

 

Milo, assuming we're both here when I next upgrade, you and me are going to have a nice, long talk...

Wouldn't you be kind of screwed if you couldn't get your old Windows CD? I know that's the case with me - no Windows CD...wait a second, I do have my back-up of Win2k...

I still don't get what people are saying all about Win98 being unstable...I hardly ever get any problems, and nothing ever of a serious nature. Regarding Win2k being the same kernel, you're wrong on that one. Win2k is essentially NT5. Why do you think it has all different levels of access, and Win98 doesn't? There are the two main kernels, the NT and the 'regular'. Win2k is based on NT, and I believe WinXP might be on regular, or it could be an entirely new kernel. I know almost nothing about XP though, so I'm most likely wrong somewhere about the above statement...

 

That was poor wording on my part. What I meant was that WinXP and Win2000 were based on the same kernel, and that there probably wasn't much of a stability difference between them. Win98 isn't NT at all. I think the official numbering is: Win2000=NT5, WinXP=NT5.1 or something like that.

 

Yup, XP is an upgraded version of 2000 and nothing more. What happens is you sacrifice all those "manual upgrading" options and let windows do it in its own screwy way. Driver wise, the users ability to change is impaired. But it has it's major effects on stability.

 

Milo, thanks for the help. It really does make my choices easier and make me feel better about building my own. Last time I bought a comp I fell into a good deal with my Compaq, so the last time I built my own it was a PII.

I can't re-use many of my current components. My computer is a Compaq small form factor, have much onboard stuff.

Regarding XP: I'll save myself the money and stick with 2000. Mainly, I just want to avoid confronting the XP-2000 network issue at the same time as building my own comp. I'll upgrade eventually, but I'll do Lysa's at the same time and sidestep the problem.

Regarding processor. I'll look for a 1.6 to overclock, I think. I can use the saved money on better quality RAM. I'll get the named DDR's, as you suggest.

Regarding the sound - thanks! I'll ditch the SB.

Regarding the vid card, Asus WAS the cheapest, believe it or not.

Regarding the case, I'll look around, but I think I am still abit stuck. You have to remember that availability is different here and so is cost. I'll try for the Antec, or maybe that Evercase if I can't find it.


More later, when I've priced it all up (not that you'll be out of bed).

--------Some time later--------------
Update: I'm doing pretty well.

- I've found some Corsair 2700 memory for a good price.
- Now I have two case possibilities (new Antec 660AMGUK or a Chieftech using an Antec PSU).

I have a question, though, about vid cards. How much better is the Ti4400 than the Ti4200? There is a big price difference, so I'd rather get the 4200 if the performance isn't much worse.

Can anyone answer this before Milo wakes up? Jinxed, maybe? Or Calis if you're not in your beer pool.

 

The 4200 is the budget card. The 4400 is the good card. The 4600 is the "I-MUST-HAVE-THE-LATEST-CARD-EACH-WEEK" card.

The 4200 is to the 4400 as the GF2MX is to the GF2GTS. So I'd say there is a fairly big difference. The difference between 4400 and 4600 isn't as big either.

 

Thanks, Jar. Having looked at prices, I find I can get the 4400 after Milo's cost cutting ideas. It's nice to know I'm spending the extra ~£80 on something worthwhile, instead of a digit I can be proud of.

 

I don't think the 4200 is comparable to the MX cards. In the 4200's case, it really is a GeForce 4, it's just clocked slower and uses cheaper regular RAM rather than the BGA RAM that the 4400 and 4600 use. It has all the funcionality of the better cards it's just slower and doesn't have as much headroom to make it faster. The MX cards are crippled versions of the higher end cards. Less pipelines, less... other stuff. I'm no expert, but real world game performance tells you what you need to know.

When I was ready to purchase, I reasoned it out like this (note I was going to get a 128mb card no matter which model I chose):
-All of the card's GPUs would get to roughly the same speed. The 4600s were guaranteed to run at 300mhz, the 4400s @ 275, and the 4200s @ I think 250. There's usually enough headroom that most of them will hit the speed of the next card in line, and this held true for me. My GPU had no trouble getting up to 300mhz.
-The RAM is where the real difference is. The speed rating for the 4400's RAM, I think it's 3.8ns, translates out to 300mhz. It's supposed to run at that speed even though it comes from the factory at 275. With a little luck, it could be run at the 4600's speed of 350. The RAM that the 4200 uses however will not be able to run that fast. Especially on the 128mb 4200s which offset their price by using even slower RAM than the 64mb versions.
-So if I buy a 4600, I'll have to sacrifice quality on the other parts to pay the premium.
-If I buy a 4400, I'll have great performance no matter what, and have a good shot of getting 4600+ performance out of it.
-If I buy a 4200, I'll be lucky if I can get it close to stock 4400 performance.

In my case, 4400s were going for just over $200. The 128mb 4200s weren't that much less, so the decision made itself. And luckily, it turns out that I can run my 4400 at 4600 speed.

 

Well, guys, thanks for all your help. I ordered the components today. Thanks to your advice (and some from a friend of Lysa's), I'm really happy about the system I'm going to get. It came in lower than the Dell would have and has a much better spec. For the first time ever, I set a budget, stuck to it and got what I wanted.

Who says Internet friends are just a bunch of ranting perverts, who drain your time and make you feel there is no hope for the world? Not me, for a while.

 

Cool, Fatman.

Post what parts you ended up buying. If you went with the P4S533, then I have a few tips before you start building. Specifically which drivers to use to and maybe a few things to watch out for.

 

Why do I suddenly feel nervous?

Okay, here's the component list:

NEW COMPONENTS
------------------------
Seagate Barracuda 60GB HDD
Asus P4S533 Motherboard
Intel 1.8GHz 512 Cache Northwood CPU
Pioneer 16x/40x DVD
MSI Geforce 4 Ti4400 vid card
Samsung 512MB PC2700 DDR memory
Antec Plus660AMG UK Case (330 Antec PSU)

RE-USED STUFF
-------------------
Mitsumi 3.5" floppy drive
Compaq standard PS2 keyboard
MS Intellimouse Explorer (optical)
Compaq 1015TFT Flat Panel
US RObotics 56k Voice Modem
MS Win 2000 Pro O/S

OUTSTANDING (to buy)
----------------------------
100 base network adapter

I think my new components matches your recommendations almost exactly. The case is the UK version of the one you have, I believe. So, hit me with it, what do I need to know about putting them together? Do I have to face West or something?

 

Ok, first thing's first. Don't bother with the drivers on the CDs. You can throw those in the garbage.

Oh, and make note that I'm using a different operating system than you (WinXP vs. 2K), so what advice I give here may either be not necessary or not enough.

Grab the latest Detonator Drivers from Guru3D:
-http://www.guru3d.com/files/
I used the 29.42 drivers when I put my system together and they work well. While you're there at Guru3D, you might as well d/l a tuning program for your GeForce. RivaTuner works for me.

Then go to the ASUS site and download the latest AGP drivers. In my case it was 1.09, but 1.10 was just coming out. I also needed the Cmedia drivers because WinXP didn't recognize the sound at first. If you have the onboard sound version, then grab the latest drivers.

Burn those on a CD and get your stuff together for a Win2000 install. I was advised that for WinXP, the only drivers I would need would be the updated Asus AGP driver and the latest Detonators and that the native WinXP drivers would be best for all the other stuff. This is with a Windows Update which I wasn't able to do since my network isn't up and running yet so the new comp isn't on the internet, so I needed the Asus Cmedia drivers to get my sound functioning. Again, your mileage may vary. I don't know the state of Win2000. I imagine that if you're running the latest updates you should be fine.

The last thing I can think of regarding the software is the order in which you install the drivers. It was laid out for me in this way:
-Install Windows
-Update (I wasn't able to do this, thanks Microsoft)
-Install the Detonators
-Install the AGP drivers
-Install whatever else you may need

It's important to install the vid card drivers before you install the AGP driver. Forgot exactly why, but it was causing problems that stumped people for awhile when done the other way around.

Ok, that's that for now.

Regarding the hardware, you just have to keep a few things in mind. Ground yourself often by touching the PSU housing. Make sure you use the standoffs when you mount the motherboard. You know, common sense stuff. Install the minimum amount of components and then add parts one by one in order to isolate any problems you might have. I didn't do this, but I'm lazy. You should do it.

Hmm... what else? Stick an 80mm case fan in the HDD cage and set it to intake air from outside the case and blow it over your HDD. It will be a tight fit with the GeForce, but you should be able to fit it if you're using a standard flat ribbon IDE cable rather than the fancy round ones.

Umm... Get a better heatsink. This isn't strictly necessary since the stock fan isn't too bad, but for peace of mind I'd get a better one. At the very least, scrape off the gray thermal pad that's stuck on the stock Intel heatsink, clean it up with some rubbing alcohol and use some Arctic Silver thermal compound on your CPU. Apply a very thin layer. Really. Paper thin. If you've never used this stuff before, then I'll put it this way. How ever much you think is a little, put less than that.

Last thing that comes to mind is the front USB/Firewire ports on your case. It's a little confusing hooking these up, man. If you hook them up incorrectly, it disables your secondary IDE port making you think that the motherboard is broken. It's not. Once you hook up the USB ports correctly, the secondary IDE problem resolves itself. It's really hard to explain what to put where and I'll need to open up my case to get the right config so I'll save that for after you've tried hooking them up yourself. The instructions are vague and some people say wrong. They are confusing, but I reasoned it out and came up with the right config on my first try. If yours doesn't work, then I'll open up my case and give you the pin #'s and shit.

Well, that's all I can think of for now. If I think up anything else, I'll add another post to bump the topic.

Oh wait, one last thing. Don't worry about overclocking until you're sure you've got everything running properly. Get a program like Prime95 and run the torture test on your system overnight to really load the CPU. This'll help you test stability and also how well your heatsink is working. If everything is cool after this burn-in period, then you can dive into the BIOS and start tweaking things.

 

Nice one. All good stuff, I'm sure. I'll look into a few of the things you suggested before my parts arrive and burn the CD.

 

I really should learn how to do that sort of shit myself if I want to go anywhere serious in the computer industry. I also just find it's so much easier to drop my computer off at the store where I buy the parts, pay the comparitively small service fee, and get the whole thing set up, installed and working for me. If there's any problems, I just take it back until it works, OR I'LL SUE THEIR BITCH ASSES!

Also, Fatman, I believe that the P4's have some sort of inbuilt heat protection thing - once they get too hot, they cut down their cycle's by 50% so they CPU is effectively half speed until it cools down again.

Also, Milo, why do you only need to put a small amount of that silver stuff on? What's wrong with just a regular layer, instead of going for the smallest of the small layers?