A Creche Thread to Whine In -- The Spam Situation

I'm taking it upon myself to start this thread for discussion of the Spam Situation.

(A) Because it's the hot topic nowadays.
(B) Because discussion of Spam (whether pro or anti) is cluttering up every thread on the board which is as annoying as too much spam.
(C) Because it's easier to keep up on the situation and people's views on them without having to try to remember which thread strayed off-topic and where you replied to last. Let's see... I know I made a post about the spam situation, but... what thread was that in again? Was it the one about Morrowind? Or was it that one about cats? "et cetera, et cetera..." --Yule Brenner
(D) Because I get tired seeing one person post something (allegedly) spammy in a thread and no matter the original topic, it turns into a thread about that one post and/or poster.

So what I'd like to do is for people to initially weigh in with their stance. Sheriff Fatman, for instance, is for a hardline post/day restriction. Even if you've said it before in another thread, say it again just for the sake of keeping it all in one place. Then take it from there. Then it would all be here, nice and neat in this one thread, where I can safely ignore the whole thing and wait for the forums to return back to normal.

Since I made the request for people to state their feelings on the state of the boards, I'll start it off with my own thoughts:

My Whine
by: Milo

Yeah, the boards are spammed. It does get a little annoying, but personally, I don't get that bothered by it. I have in the past; friend_al and Queth really got on my nerves for awhile some months ago, so I don't mean to come off as unsympathetic to Dragoon, Sheriff, retard, and others who are getting increasingly frustrated.

Also, if you care to go back into the archives to oh... October 2001 onwards, you'll see alot of the older members, me included, spam just like the newer guys are. I tend to think it was funnier or wittier back then, but I'm biased. We are kind of the "oldies" now, but then we weren't. The board is older than we are, so what happened to the originals? They left right around the time we were spewing all over the boards. I'm not saying that the newer people's spamming is going to drive anyone away - not me, at least, but it's something to keep in mind.

What do I think should be done? Nothing much. Jinxed and Calis, both the main admin of the forums and the owner of the website and domain have said to cool it. They haven't gone in and started banning people left and right, but rather made a reasonable request and given us all enough credit to think that we'll be able to restrain ourselves a little. A little, as in "just make an effort". This, I think, should be enough. Neither of them have ever been hard-liners when it comes to spam, and that's one of the reasons I liked coming here and stayed here; the admins are friendly and pretty much hands-off, letting people have fun. If you've ever frequented boards that are tightly moderated and you constantly have to think and rethink a post, private message other members and ask if they think this one-liner is funny enough or if it crosses over into spam, then you know the definition of a Not Fun Place To Visit. That kind of attitude would drive me away, and I'm glad that that sort of thing isn't even being considered.

I'm starting to ramble on, but I'm gonna sing my song. Ramble on. Ramble on. [/Led Zeppelin]

Basically, here's what I'm saying. I think the Spam Situationâ„¢ is being blown a little out of proportion. I think things will cool back down once the newer guys reach whatever post count they're shooting for, most likely 1000. Conversational Spam should be saved for the chatroom. Post count boosting posts (and believe me, we all know what I mean by this) should be kept to threads dedicated for this like those godawful poking or four-word threads. No offense to whoever started those threads; Rather, my thanks. When it's kept to one place like that it's easy for the people who aren't in to it to skip over.

So Spammers: Just tone it down. Don't over-react and get defensive when someone singles you out or points out your spamming. Yeah, it sucks that you're being targeted, but before you lash back, think about why this person took the time to single you out. Grain of truth, and whatever. AND GET INTO THE CHATROOM.

Spam Haters (aka mapS-ers, haha I'm clever!): You tone it down, too. Don't make it a witch hunt. Give people a chance to change. Coming to a board full of bad vibes is worse than coming to a board that has a few threads with useless posts tacked on to the end.

To Everyone: Just flow with it, godammit. I hate when shit turns into a soap opera. Rather than being hyper-critical, just let things slide a little. Keep the forums light with the occasional dip into more serious subjects. Keep it FUN, please.

All right, that's it. I've said my piece. I said I was going to ignore this thread, and I probably will. Those are my thoughts and I don't have anything more to add. It's not open to debate, because they are just my opinions, and I think they're reasonable ones.


EDIT - Some useful links:

• mIRC
  • This is a client program that will let you get onto the chatroom. Download and install, then set it to go to any Gamesnet server. Once in, type /join #Arcanum to get into the main Arcanum chat, or /join #TA-Regulars to enter the chatroom dedicated for the members of this board. If you need some help, feel free to ask. As confusing as it can be at first, it's really simple, and people are more than willing to help.
• GamesNet Java Chat
  • If you can't get into the chatroom using a real client program like mIRC because you're at work or you have a firewall blocking that port or you're just some freak weirdo technophobe that's afraid to install shit, you can use this java interface to get in.
  • Under "Nick" enter your nickname, durr stupit.
  • Under "Email" enter your fake ass e-mail address.
  • Under "Room" type either #Arcanum or #TA-Regulars, see above.

 

It used to be, IMHO. And still is from time to time, but I just feel that all the incessant one-liner conversation "Yeah, I agree" "Me too" "Why is that" posts have just flooded good threads. Maybe it doesn't drive you off, Milo, and I'm glad it doesn't because you'd be missed, among several others.

But it does drive me away. When I post something that I hope someone will read, and log on an hour later only to see 15 "spammy" off-topic one liners after my post, it drives me up the wall.
So, when I accused FoE of straying off topic, and he replied, "Um, what was the topic again?" I flipped, I'll admit. (You shoulda seen the post I was gonna post. I deleted it, and typed what you saw.) But I'd just had enough.

Anyway, just wanna say that I have fun here, kiddies. And I wanna still have fun. But it just seemed to me, and this is my opinion, I realize, that the board was drowning in spam. Nothing was sacred. Nothing unspammable.

My 2 cents.....

 

My thoughts:

• I do not hate spam. When Queth was spamming, it didn't bother me at all, and I actually found the response to be harsh.
• It seems I have a threshold. When several people are spamming at once, I cannot enjoy the boards. Interesting posts get lost. Not only do I have trouble finding them, but other people do too, so they don't attract many posts.
• Other people, who are usually very tolerant, also seem to have spam thresholds. So, past a certain temperature the spam catches fire. Spam burns like tires - very difficult to extinguish and accompanied by much smelly mess. If we want to avoid this particular brand of flaming, I think we have to avoid too much spam.
• I would like a nod and a wink to solve our problems. I was kinda shocked that Dragoon's initial complaint fell on deaf ears.
• If a nod and a wink won't solve our problems, something more explicit might be preferable than letting things continue to degenerate.
• I actually have, just today, considered ... a sabbatical ... from TA. I was going to PM some people with my e-mail address, and let them know I wouldn't be reading the boards. I decided to let things run a bit more, and maybe try to help, but I considered it. It isn't just the spam. A really negative vibe has invaded, and I haven't enjoyed many of my recent visits.

My proposed solution, as I mentioned in another thread, wouldbe the introduction of 2 rules.

1. Users with a post rate 10+ get 2 weeks to bring it down, or are banned.

2. Users over 15+ per day get an instant ban.

Some points about it

• It is fair, with no prospect of favouritism to regulars or newbies.
• It's a relaxed limit. you'd have to spam quite seriously to get over those totals. I do not believe many people here have - even at our spammiest - exceeded 15 per day. Few of us would have been over 10 per day, and then not for long.
• It doesn't require a lot of explanation or discussion. Everyone can check their own rate and act accordingly.
• It is tweakable. The thresholds can be adjusted to fit with our own spam tolerances.
• It doesn't require much work for the mods. The profiles of recent posters would just be checked every now and then, to see if anyone is in a danger area.
• Alternative solutions entail a mod or mods making arbitrary and subjective judgements as to whether a post is spam, and tracking how many such posts given users make over time. This is labour intensive, prone to objection, and a post hoc, punishment based solution (ie. someone must be already breaking the rules to be called out on it, at which point they'll be threatened with a ban). Having a clearly laid down boundary up front makes it possible for people to stay the right side of the rules and also gives the mods an impersonal (ie. no mess) way of saying "you are posting too much spam."
• I know Milo called this hard line, but I don't believe it is. I actually think it'll make the problem go away (and stay away) with the least number of cross words. For instance, it doesn't involve mods riding everyone's ass. I don't like people riding my ass - he says it makes him sore.

 

I wanted spammers to get custom avatars (nothing they would like of course). However I do realize that it is simply too late for that. They should've been stopped earlier on, now inflicting such "punishment" upon them wouldn't any longer have much sense imo.

Sheriff the 10 posts idea is quite good. After all it is not that much easy to post 10 interesting and useful posts. Also with our tolerant admins I doubt anyone would be immidiately banned for posting 16 really interesting no spam/no flaming posts because a few good threads appeared and a vivid interesting discussion followed.

The best option imo would be to reduce level. I saw this happening at V13 - someone was declared spammer and his post count was reduced severely - I don't know if Calis has enabled this option though. The reason why I would like to see it in action is because reducing somebody's post count by 300 posts takes admin an uncomparably shorter time that it took the spammer to post them (even if they were all blank).

One liners: These can be really funny therefore even if I had mod powers I would not ban people who make humorous remarks. They are not spam really as such humorous remarks don't really happen to often and I like to laugh - I can't however stand senseless, pointless one liners that are not even funny don't introduce anything to a thread and basically were posted solely for the reason of increasing post count.

That's all from me - at least all that I happned to think of right now.

 

I've a couple of things to say, on both S_F's and Dragoon's methods.

Firstly, Dragoon, you are correct in assuming that avatars are too late. It also has the disadvantage of enticing people to spam a lot, just to get the 'cool, spam avatar' that would ensue. For example, the can of spam has become almost a 'cult' avatar! :roll:

Secondly, I'd also like to agree with the 1 liners part - they can often be very humourous, and even add to a thread, if there's not a lot to say. (eg. pointing something out.) I'd much rather have a shorter post, than someone writing a longer, more spammy post, just to make it lengthy enough for acceptance.

Also, on the point of avatars and post counts, reducing the PC is a good method, providing of course, that the member actually cares about the post count. OK, so most members do, as you get to have those nice looking rank avatars, but you sometimes get people who just like to spam for the hell of it, and don't care what their post count is.

And finally, (yes, I will shut up soon :wink: ) Sheriff, your posts per day method is a very hard, but very effective system, and I back it fully. However, there is one major flaw in it. It only works for new members!

I come to this conclusion, because long-existing members, even if they have not posted before, have a lot of time (days) to buffer their post counts. I myself would find it hard to raise a post count of 10 per day, even if I wrote nothing but 20 spam posts a day for the next several weeks, because my ppd is currently just over 2.

New members on the other hand, would find it difficult to keep it low enough, because of the relatively low number of days they have been 'onboard'. This would severely unbalance the system, as established members could spam to hearts desire, and not face any effect of the system for months, but if a new member decided to join in, they would be curtailed rather sharply.

I thus propose that the cut-off be graded, with respect to the number of days you have been registered. Perhaps a certain percentage of posts would be better than a definite post number cut-off, provided of course, that it is possible.

There - I've finished. I went on a bit longer than I meant to, but I hope this adds to the discussion.

 

Depends which way you look at it. If someone posts here for a month and keeps their average down, then they have been staying within the rules for a long time. Going up to a high post count won't get them banned immediately, but it will eventually. You could look at the extra grace period as recognition that they didn't come on the board and start spamming immediately.

I doubt any new users would have much trouble staying within the 10 a day limit. If they do go over, they get a coupla weeks to sort it out and settle in. If someone is still posting at that rate by the end of the 2 weeks, they are a spammer.

If the limit routinely gives new members trouble, we can raise it, or scrap it altogether.

Lets look at a few cases.

1. New user comes in with massive post rate. The rules are pointed out, and he restrains himself enough over the next 2 weeks to not get banned.
2. New user comes in with massive post rate. The rules are pointed out, but he is unable/unwilling to stay within them. He gets banned, we lose a spammer.
3. User comes in, exists for a while near the limit, then ramps it up. The rules are pointed out and he either rediscovers a little self-control or decides to part company.
4. User comes in, stays well under the post rate, then starts spamming massively. His post rate doesn't hit 10 for ages. The system fails.
5. User registers but never posts. A long time later, he spams the place up. His post rate is dragged down by his dormant period and the system fails.

When you think about it, the troubles we have generally come from people in (1) and (3). The failure cases of (4) and (5) would be uncommon enough for it not to be too much of a pain in the arse for the mods to deal with more personally.

Grading the cut off sounds ultimately more exact, but not so workable. I've never been a mod anywhere, but complexity is something I'd want to avoid when dealing with things that have to be explained to forum users - especially users who can't understand the sentence "please do not spam quite so much."

 

My Yammer
by tzehoong

My two bits: "Spam" is a necessity and a scourge to any board. Too little, and the board become too serious, with everybody talking about nothing but issues that may or may not interest the occasional viewer. Boring, in other words.

Too much spam, and the board loses its identity. Everybody treats it like a delayed mIRC, all the posts are multi-page with the non-regulars wondering what in the blazes everyone is going on about. They go to the first page, and find that it has nothing to do with the last. They write HoL of as a spam board.

Sheriff's proposal makes sense, but at the same time a burden to the moderators of the board. I can forsee a situation Six in Sheriff's post:

6. Spammer checks his post count and keeps it just below the limit. The moderator waits for it to reach the limit, but it doesn't. Mod exercises veto power. Spammer complains.


I don't think statistics should be employed to get rid of spam. What I propose is that

:Magic Solution Mode:

we send the said spammer to Coventry. The moderator declares (after some discussion with the members) that all posts made by the spammer not be referred or replied to in any manner. It takes two hands to clap.

:/Magic Solution:



I just want to finish by saying this: It takes a long time for me to load a HoL page on my computer. When I log in for the day there are invariably more than fifteen new topics. These days it's more like 30.

I don't read them all. It would take too much time. I want to have a life. How do I judge what topics I should read? By the title? Nope - a good thread doesn't hinge on what the title is.

I take a look at the author. This method works 75% of the time. I know the people who make good topics and I know people who

 

1. I realise that some of the regulars think I spam. I don't spam intentionally, never have, and really get annoyed at those that do. If I do go over the top, e.g, ridiculously short posts, it will be because I have nothing else to say, only that point. I'm not one to wait for one long post to voice all my opinions.

2. One-liners aren't always spam. Anyway, even the spam can add something to a thread (Maniac's double "I'm with stupid" smilie at YeaYea). I think one-liners will have to be moderated without any clear system - it's just too broad.

3. Sheriff, great idea. The Mods (ominous capitals) can just take a bit of license (ce?) with particular cases.

At ease.

 

That's pretty funny, Settler, since it never crossed my mind to think you're a spammer.

tzehoong, I try to ignore spam anyway. Your solution about not replying to people shares some problems with our current system:it's punishment based, so subject to complaint/debate; it's based entirely on arbitrary judgement calls.

In order for people to obey rules, they have to know what the rule is. Currently, our rule is "Do not spam too much," which relies on subjective interpretations of "spam" and "too much." The current troubles have highlighted the fact that people have different interpretations of those words, making the rule essentially useless.

[EDIT]Sorry, I forgot to mention about your case (6). Two points:

a) I think we should set the limits at where we really believe our tolerances to be. That would mean, if someone stays just below them, we should all still be able to deal with it.

b) The rule would in no way detract from powers the mods already have. If a mod thinks someone is playing him for a fool at any time, he can still take whatever action they always would have done.

---------------------

Okay, I have put more effort into explaining this idea than I intended, so would like to stress that it was just an idea that popped into my head. I'm not attached to it, and if the spamming goes away on its own or the mods take other action to get rid of it, that will suit me. I just want the boards back on track.

 

OR we could take the easy way out and just make Jarinor admin for a few days. Is he still around? I have not seen him for some days now.

 

Q, your last post, coupled with your signature, makes for a scary statement.

 

Most of the Aussies seem to have disappeared. DU, Jar and MrNobodie have been stopped coming by.

 

I'm here, no national disaster that I've heard of.

Mr. N was around a few days ago, same with Jarinor. Haven't seen DU around for quite a while - Sept. 23 in the Mod Review forum.

(That's good to hear, SF )

 

btw what happen to the #ta-regulats IRC on gamesnet.net?
every time i check in there
theres no one maybe its the time lag or something
but i think activating it or more people come visiting the irc
it would lessen the spam

and a suggestion
how about this
this is for everybody
if you think someone is spamming a lot
make a thread about it
and let the members make the decision on what to do about the spammer
in case the mods are ...... buzy

 

Same here. I just downloaded mIRC today, no-one on #T-A. Technically, everything was alright (actually showed up as T-A (without regulars), so I must've got some reaction). Is #T-A generally less or more busy than HoL?

[EDIT] I just realised that it would've been 3 am in the US - that might have something to do with it ...

 

The best kept secret in T-A is that #ta-regulars is about as busy as morgue. Even the people who you see in there are lifeless and unresponsive.

Ignore my bile. It stems from having been the target of a "no fun on IRC" conspiracy, wherein other users make loud cryptic references to the fun they're having, but ensure that they're never around when I log on. The only two people regularly there when I arrive are Milo and Kayuga, and they are generally in the middle of conversation about where to get the best porn.

 

And with that, I'm now off IRC forever .

But seriously, I've never really been one for chat, I prefer forums. I do use MSN occasionally though - I'm an antisocial bastard with terrible social skills...thank god for the internet .

 

I'd also like to recommend #arcanum if you guys get bored on IRC. It's a Terra Arcanum managed channel as well, though it has mostly regulars who aren't active on these boards (but are active elsewhere in the Arcanum fan community).

 

No-one there either - or maybe I messed up, I didn't know what I was doing...

 

Same here. #arcanum is usually as dead as #ta-regs, all the times I've been there. I remember the old days, I would log on, and Rosie, Milo, Quethim, Kayuga *cough* SakaiNoriko *cough* and Jinxed were there. I even caught Feldon Kane on there a couple of times.

Ah.... I miss those days of ass probing...... With Quethim innocently saying, "Guys, I'm not gay. Dont probe me!!! I don't relly care if yuo guys r gay..... Milo ar eyou gya?"