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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: 
 
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Respect, Jungle Japes. Why should you 'play ball' with your core beliefs, after all? Especially when the game is "Let's discredit religion."

But I'll play, even if it is just baiting dogs...

When I was 17 I was very sick and I had a fevered dream... An hundred billion coffins orbited the star of Truth, grinding away the numbers to find the equation which led to the star. As I watched, the constant in the equation was found to another decimal place, and a coffin vanished, only to reappear slightly closer to the star. I realised then that we could only get infinitely close to Truth and never touch it. Yet we were bound to the star, projections of it rather than seperate from it. In that moment, I disappeared from my coffin in space and a bright light engulfed me and I felt what I can only describe as One With Everything. For a long, long time, I laughed in my sick bed, nearly laughed myself to death, because of the foolish, futile, wonderful pride of everyone who had ever lived, me included.

The universe itself seems like a practical joke after that: Ooh, look out! We're ignorant, sufferring mortals... Nah, just kidding, we're all God. Good joke, eh?


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: 
 
There IS a cow level
There IS a cow level

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The game is (was?) an argumentative discussion about religion. In such a discussion, arguments and views are exchanged. If Japes claims to have empirical data of God/the supernatural and refuses to share it, I say he's full of shit. If he did share his experiences, I might of course also say a number of things, depending on what he'd write.

TheDavisChanger wrote:
decisions such as whether or not to wage war are too important to be made with emotions, so it is a person's responsibility to rid himself of them


Well... While I do agree with the first part of the sentance, I do not agree with the rest of it. War is too serious to be governed by emotions, but we don't have to rid ourselves of emotion just because of that.

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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

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ytzk wrote:
When I was 17 I was very sick and I had a fevered dream...


Ah yes, the fevered dream: the corner stone of established epistemological certainty. Elegant in that not only is it based upon a contingent premise, it begets a contingent conclusion, and all under the irrational banner of faith. The great thing about faith is, it doesn't need to be proven or rationalized; but, then again,
Nietzsche wrote:
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith doesn't prove anything;

and faith of equal magnitude in there not being a Truth leaves us with a sort of problem, doesn't it? Especially along the lines of God's divine attributes being in a sort of contradiction here; God couldn't really love me that much if he's willing to grant me a life of suffering when enlightenment is in his power all this time, without us needing to learn from experience; and it's odd that I could disbelieve in the concept of God at all, definitively. But, I'm forgetting: it's all part of the great big mystery which we've established through God through ourselves through Faith; and who's gonna contradict that?

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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: 
 
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I don't think it proves anything, except possibly that I'm insane.

However, the conclusion I made, that we are all One, has shown itself to be a very practical working theory.

For instance, it helps me to see everyone's point of view.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

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Ironically, I have a very similar view; though I wouldn't have expressed it so— dogmatically; but the fact that it is a working, pragmatic system is merely consequential, possibly of the same concept but almost certainly so at least in and of itself neccessarily, as a system definitively, and not under some grand Truth.

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And she wasn't even the female with whom I have a telepathic relationship.


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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: 
 
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ytzk wrote:
I don't think it proves anything, except possibly that I'm insane.

However, the conclusion I made, that we are all One, has shown itself to be a very practical working theory.

For instance, it helps me to see everyone's point of view.



Democrat congressmen good.

Republican congressmen bad.

Shoot the bad ones.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:08 am Post subject: 
 
Good Sir Knight
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Wolfsbane wrote:
...but we don't have to rid ourselves of emotion...
That's precisely where Scientology breaks down for me. That we are all part of some fractured alien psyche I can buy, but absolute stoicism?

wayne-scales wrote:
...God couldn't really love me that much if he's willing to grant me a life of suffering when enlightenment is in his power...
My conclusion: God doesn't love you. It's not so much that God was created in Man's image and thus given Man's qualities, but more the case that Man expresses God in his limited language, and that's where God inherits Man's qualities, such as love. My guess is the cause for your suffering is either indifference or lack of awareness of you on God's part.

I prefer to believe that we are all a part of the same hive. I don't pretend that the hive has any significance beyond this life, but it doesn't hurt to work toward that assumption.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:36 am Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

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TheDavisChanger wrote:
[...] Man expresses God in his limited language, and that's where God inherits Man's qualities[...]


Language grew out of metaphysics; not vica versa.

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Xyle wrote:
And she wasn't even the female with whom I have a telepathic relationship.


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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: 
 
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Guys, what the fuck are you talking about. We don't live in hives.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: 
 
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My view of god is the same as my view of everyone else. If they're not cool enough to sit down and talk with me/the world and clarify the situation, they're an asshole and not worth my time. At least God has the excuse of probably being the figment of some guys imagination that people took waaaaay to seriously.

If it does exist, it's an asshole not worth revering, if it doesn't, I haven't spent like a 1/14 of my life making an ass of myself by revering something that doesn't exist. So I'm covered either way. If they are not chill enough to come down and have a chat like a reasonable person, they are simply not worth the time.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: 
 
Reptilus Rex
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Do some drugs. Then you'll speak to god (or a personal manifestation of what you perceive to be god).

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:34 am Post subject: 
 
Good Sir Knight
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wayne-scales wrote:
Language grew out of metaphysics; not vica versa.
Please elaborate.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: 
 
Reptilus Rex
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Language didn't come from metaphysics, it came from a communal need to express ideas like "where are we getting our next meal." Metaphysics came later, some time around 50,000 years ago when man was behaviorally modern and had time to think about the world, and what is there. Before man had modernized, people lived in groups of 150-200 and had little time to speculate on the bigger picture, living by foraging and hunting and having a nomadic lifestyle. It was the title of Aristotle's first books, and comes from the greek Meta (beyond) and physika (physics). The chapters covering metaphysics come after the chapters on physics in his books, and are what Aristotle called "First Philosophy." Aristotle's editor titled these books "ta meta ta physika biblia," or the books that come after the books on physics. Latin scholiasts misread this as the science of what is beyond the physical. Essentially meaning what is beyond the physical, metaphysics took hold after we had become modern and could wonder about such things as the great immaterial, and was finally described much later.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:57 pm Post subject: 
 
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Let's all worship nature like me :D

I was once called a druid when I was making a salve from some plants at the Camping forest.

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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
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Grossenschwamm wrote:
Language didn't come from metaphysics, it came from a communal need to express ideas like "where are we getting our next meal."


Oh right, I see; it was just an imperative means of expressing the abstract idea of— Ruh-roh..! Abstract..? Idea..?

What I meant was that language was created in order to allow us to manifest abstract concepts; such as hunger, love, and buttrape. I was trying to say that these concepts obviously didn't arise out of language, but precedented and necessitated its creation; so it's not that our language confines our expression, in the same way that experience of objects and animals doesn't limit our imagination of things. In fact, it seems to be this very principle which gives birth to ideas such as perfection and God: since we can imagine only what we've seen, and picture imaginary objects by taking our experiences to their limits, we can create 'new', imaginary concepts by the same process linguistically, metaphysically.

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Xyle wrote:
And she wasn't even the female with whom I have a telepathic relationship.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: 
 
Reptilus Rex
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Well then that's what you should have said. You're taking for granted that we all experience the same reality, when clearly there are differing perspectives all around you.

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Last edited by Grossenschwamm on Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

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Grossenschwamm wrote:
Well then that's what you should have said. You're taking for granted that we all experience the same reality.


What? (See what I did there? :D)

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Xyle wrote:
And she wasn't even the female with whom I have a telepathic relationship.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:32 am Post subject: 
 
Reptilus Rex
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The way I can see the future is concepts arrive to my mind before there is language and indeed context for them to happen, and then several weeks later they do! If I can alter those concepts in the dream, suppose what I could do if I unlock this potential.

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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: 
 
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Language is symbolic, so it requires that much metaphysics at least, that a word can represent a thing.

But language is everywhere in nature, and much older than merely our species.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:48 pm Post subject: 
 
Obey your Master
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I don't get this metaphysics thing. It mostly seems like a convenient catch-all when you need a word for something you cannot thoroughly explain.

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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
Fucking illogical, captain

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Dark Elf wrote:
I don't get this metaphysics thing. It mostly seems like a convenient catch-all when you need a word for something you cannot thoroughly explain.

It's actually more like an umbrella term for all concepts and ideas &c.


ytzk wrote:
But language is everywhere in nature, and much older than merely our species.

So what?

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Xyle wrote:
And she wasn't even the female with whom I have a telepathic relationship.


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: 
 
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Dark Elf wrote:
I don't get this metaphysics thing. It mostly seems like a convenient catch-all when you need a word for something you cannot thoroughly explain.


That's what I thought, it's just a model applied to various social/cultural constructs and other phenomena in order to describe something that just doesn't fit in with the current dogma.

What I don't get is how they can say "language needs metaphysics". Metaphysics isn't a thing, it's just a man-made construction provided in order to group a further set of constructions. Language is something that we didn't create but rather something we were born into - it's intuitive and without it, how were a group of like-minded individuals ever even agree on the concept of metaphysics, let alone assign a name to it?


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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
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Charonte wrote:
What I don't get is how they can say "language needs metaphysics". Metaphysics isn't a thing, it's just a man-made construction provided in order to group a further set of constructions. Language is something that we didn't create but rather something we were born into - it's intuitive and without it, how were a group of like-minded individuals ever even agree on the concept of metaphysics, let alone assign a name to it?

Agree on a concept of metaphysics? Good thing we all had that big conference on agreeing on what everything ever is. Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything! How would anything have ever been created without our definition of it, which is its creation? In fact, by that 'logic', how could the definition of anything begin to exist without a definition of definition?

We didn't create metaphysics, in just the same way that we didn't create anything that we see, out of nothing. Born innately or not, it's not a man-made concept; just as colour and sound are not. Though we may experience these things in our own unique, human way, it's as a result of the things themselves and not of any conscious construct, except by interpretation.

It looks to me like you've got it backwards: we did not create metaphysics, and we did create language. Metaphysical concepts are common to everyone: though we may not always know under which category something falls, good and bad are naturally arising concepts, as well as the concept of anything once it is experience. Language, on the other hand, needed to be constructed; as is evidenced by its evolution, the neccesity of its being learned and not innate, and the diversity of it throughout the world. The fact that we have different words (in different languages, I mean) for common concepts such as 'chair' or 'pleasure' lends further verisimiltude to this argument. Further, and ironically, when you say that language is 'intuitive', by its very manifestation this does not make sense, and what you are referring to is the concept of language, which is not language itself, but the abstract, metaphysical idea of it.

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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: 
 
Reptilus Rex
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So what you're saying is there are really no new concepts, but things that haven't been described yet? By the way, sorry for the outburst about superpowers.

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Last edited by Grossenschwamm on Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: 
 
Fucking illogical, captain
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Grossenschwamm wrote:
So what you're saying is there are really no new concepts, but things that haven't been described yet?

Exactly; and just to be hilarious, that's not even a new idea. It's at least a couple of thousand years old, and features in the thoughts of philosophers such as Parmenides of Elea and Plato, as well as in religious texts such as the Bible.

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