Who is Replaying Arcanum? Post your thoughts...

I am curious to hear the opinions of those who have completed the retail version of Arcanum (not the demo) and are replaying it as a different character.

I'm one of those folks who loves RPGs, but has so little time to devote to playing them that completing one is a rare event. Arcanum rocks, and I've been making good progress despite my schedule. I might just finish this one!

I've been playing as a Warrior/Mage. I'd consider replaying as a tech character, but even with the differences in the character and what you do, you still have to redo most of the same quests as before, and the only surprises to be had the second time around might be "oh, so that was what was locked up in the barrel", "so that's how you make bullets", or "now I can do this one new quest".

For those of you replaying the game, what characters have you used? Any thoughts on whether experiencing the tech side is worth a replay? Is a change in your character enough to justify another round of Arcanum?

Let me know, and thanks for your thoughts...

 

If you look in the quests section
there is a big difference in hte main plot quests if you play as an evil person.

 

To clarify
IMO magick or tech is the method you choose to play the game with, doesn't really affect the quests that much.But the choices you tkae can affect the game greatly as I already posted.

 

Actually, I've never technically finished it. I hit level 50, then I start over. To me, level 50 is the end of the game.

 

er, powergamer you

it just says that you can't build your characters stats anymore, nothing about not being able to build your character.

 

heh dude u suck ull never finish the game that way

and i gonna replay it as soon as i finish TOB

 

I agree with Monkeypunch. If you were in my pen & paper group, I'd be making your life miserable, Saint P. :grin:

 

If I were in a PnP game, I'd still be leveling up, wouldn't I?

The fact is, at level 50, you're as good as you're going to get, barring blessings and new items.

At level 50, Arcanum goes from being an RPG to an adventure game. If I wanted an adventure game, I'd have bought a damned adventure game.

I'm just amazed how early in the game you can hit that level cap too. It's ridiculous.

 

actually SP, Arcanum would be a roleplaying game if you created a character from start, that never got any CP's

that is to say, you start level 50.

you seems to be way to locked up in the fictional view that you need to statistically build up a character. no, it only helps, the main part you is to build up is a role, and the role you play, is not due to one point spent here and there.

thats why diablo is not a RPG, and why Deus Ex is(well, its a hybrid, but the key is that you build a role).

Fallout is not a RPG due to people being able to put points in the character, but due to the vast choises of playing styles, thus you are able to create THE character you want.

actually in many of the PNP games i played, often very little dungeon romp and much dialog etc. the key is that you would pretty much never gain something called a level. hehe. and some of those sessions could never be beaten by any cRPG in the Role playing apartment, and still we would perhaps not gain any real skill to put on paper.

perhaps you should rethink your opinions, after all with your train of thoughts suddenly Diablo 2 is as much an RPG as Fallout 1, and even more so then a fine PNP
session. hmm, now we can't have that can we?
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: monkeypunch on 2001-09-05 23:20 ]</font>

 

That's a nice leap of faith you're making, monkey.

Please explain to me how you are role playing if there's an arbitary cap on what you can become halfway through the game?

Does your character's brain turn off? Long term memory all full?

You haven't even seen(or EXPERIENCED) half the things in the story. How can there be no growth for the character if he's not done everything there is to do in this story?

It makes no sense at all in terms of roleplaying. If your character stops growing as an individual, your role is done. It's merely a treasure hunt/adventure game after that.

 

no, you miss the point, the(this will sound funky)character stats, is simply vessel for the character.

you see if you have created an individual character from start, it is a character, and it doesn't need to progress, its still a role you play, and as you can decide as much about the characters stats, its no less a character then a character who stats is built up slowly as the game progresses.

the problem in this is that there might be some problems in finding a character, and creating it as you want it to fit your character(simply put the stats are more like a tailored suit, then anything else, its made to fit your vision of the role, its not the character itself). so Arcanum lets you build up a character slowly, the negative in this is that your vision of your character can't really be for filled until a certain level(actually making it in a sense an adventure game until you have created the vessel that will forfill your character to the level you want).

So in truth, a game that lets you build the character the way he should end from the beginning is more a RPG then a game that lets you build it during hours of play.

the problem is just those i wrote before, it can be hard to create a vessel without feeling it, and few can build up a character in a few moments. also perhaps people have found they like the adventure/action part of building it up better, then the actually role playing(you seems to fit in here SP).

the problem with arcanum is perhaps that it does both, it lets you progress the vessel over a period of time, making action/adventure gamers happy, ala saint here, but then half ways it becomes a real RPG, and turns off the power gamer.

its pretty simple CP, if you can't see past the stats it never is a rpg.

 

Let me get this right.

Choices you make in quests = RPG part
Slowly change into your ideal (hopefully)avatar

Stats = hack&slash part

People often think that an rpg is defined by its massive stats rather than by its freedom of choice.

 

well aidan, not completly true

you see without the stats, or something to make your character uniqe you can't play the role you want.

so you still need the stats to help you hold up your character.

 

No, monkey, you're missing the point. Experience Points are merely a measure of what you gain through the life of your character by doing quests and fighting monsters.

This level cap, halfway through the course of the adventure, basically says that your character has learned everything he can possibly learn regardless of the fact he hasn't seen everything. Also, that he's mastered all he can master, regardless of the fact there's still a lot that character doesn't know and hasn't tried.

Passed level 50, there is no role playing. There's no personal growth. Your character knows all he'll ever know. He's locked in mental stasis. The character goes from being a dynamic individual to merely a semi-powerful drone to do your bidding.

You can say Diablo 2 isn't an RPG because of the lack of interaction, but the character still gains levels. That's true. However, there's a lot more non-RPGs out there with static characters than there are with evolving ones. In fact, not every game with experience gaining character is an RPG, however, every game where there is no advancement isn't an RPG.

Once you hit that level cap, Arcanum ceases to be an RPG.

 

Uhh...

Nice debate going here... Still wondering if the game is worth the replay. Let's drop the cap out of this debate for the moment. For me, having to manage the point allocation is one less hassle for me. I don't mind the rather thoughtless battles (while BG2 requires more detailed knowledge of specific spells/weapons to win battles - I appreciate the detail, but I don't have the time to study it). Roleplaying depends on the role player. For me, having the level cap doesn't stop me from evolving. I see it as more of a game balancing attribute that most RPGs need to have. Finishing the game at a set level requires that I have made the right decisions in building my character. Unlimited growth turns the end game into no challenge whatsoever, I presume.

So getting back to the topic, should I even bother to retry the game, or will it just be a subtle variation of quests and dialog branches which makes the game appears slightly different? Is taking the evil approach the only real way to experience a whole new game the second time around (for those of us goody two shoes who hate pissing anyone off in a game)?

Just curious...

 

Actually, you're both correct.

RPG is much more than stats.
RPG is much more than piloting around a piece of flesh.

It's the defining point of an Adventure game, that it's short-term and puzzle-solving rather than the development of the character. RPGs have always been through the development of a character in some manner. Without a live, breathing GM, CRPGs cannot put a good measure of character growth through experiences and such aside from a stat system. P&PRPG can't really apply to CRPGs because there's the missing GM factor.

That's why, to be a true CRPG, it must fall into the middle. There must be options to play out your character to how you wish to some extent, along with a measure to show growth of your character. Otherwise, and like Deus Ex, it's the player in the game instead of the character. That's like what's going on with real-time games, is that it relies upon the reflexes and accuracy of the player instead of the reflexes and accuracy of the character. Not too terribly accurate with CRPGs, when the player has that much variable with their personal skill.

Of course, there's the ability to make and build a better character, but that's a side-effect that can't really be avoided. Plus, the player over time learns tricks and the workings of the game, which the GM could referee if the character would know it or not. There must be a measure of skills by the game to be able to define the character's abilities.

So yes, both interaction and stats are needed in a CRPG, and it's kind of unrealistic to have them cut out at a limit so early. It would be like playing a session of a P&PRPG and trying to have your character learn about something - to have the GM hold up his hand and shake his head to say "Sorry,'Sum-Dum-Wizard' can't learn anything more."



_________________
"To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 03:26 ]</font>

 

oh oh oh Saint, you really should play some PNP sometime.

your mind is all tangeled up in compute and data.

What does RPG say? Role Playing Game, right?

It doesn't say that you need to evolve it when you play. It says that you play a role, compendre?

you see, even if the role is static, its still a role, and if you can act it out, it is in theory a RPG.

and when you look at it, any restrictions on playing that role, is a restriction on the term RPG.

now the question comes to what a role is. is role a set of static numbers, data? no.
A role is how you play the character, how he acts, and interacts in the world around it. Thus the restrictions is in not having the means to play that role, and one example of such restrictions is when you are not the wanted level, so before you reach a level(or when you get the means to complete the deisgnaited vessle)you are crippled in youre role playing, as you can't interact with in the world as you want with the role you play. Sure this designaited level can in the case of arcanum be above level 50, and thus its still a restriction.

Also Saint, the progression, and the gaining of CP's got nothing to do with real life, nothing to do with the success full creation of a role, as you can put points in anything, even if you haven't played such a role.

personally the best RPG character system i've used in any Computer game is from JA2, and its not even a RPG. so why is that? well like you say you gain knowlage, but in a way suited for the role, not by getting points you can uncharatistically throw on anything.

You gain skills if you use them, not through lobbing granades, and then use what ever experience you want to call it on haggling, like throwing granades, and haggle got anything in common?

no, in JA2 you actually get what you crave any RPG is about, the gain of experience, you don't any thing like it in Arcanum or FAllout.

But they do gain experience, and in truth a experience much more in role with a RPG then points to spend on the most uncharataristic skills and stats, you gain information, and knowlage on how to deal with problems forth.

to say that this is not in the line of a RPG is such bogus and flawed that its pretty comical.


So what did we learn ol chap - They do gain experience, and they do not as you call it “Does your character's brain turn off? Long term memory all full?� as explained they gain vital information in the main story arch, and other trivial information on the rest of the world, that is as long as you haven’t completed all the quests, and read all the info, been at every place, your character gain information. Would it make you feel better if the EXP counter ticked, without ever hitting level 51?


Quoted material: going through thing after thing, often a repeat.

So as asked before, would you be happy if the counter ticked on, but never hit level 51? Darn Saint, never heard of the word imagination? If you so eagerly want the feeling that it gains experience, just think about what the character have gone through, and be happy, after all that is what it is all about, not a ticking counter, that is as real as nothing in it self.

now, i’ve said this more then once allready, so just go down to it some more.

I get the feeling Saint, that what you are playing is some Body Playing Game, instead of a RPG. He got loads of things to master, if any the main reason why he is out trampling the world in the first place, something far more important to the character, then getting an other point in charisma!

pretty much a repeat of what you have said before, like some automaton, or some BP.

well as you seems to merly bother about the body and mind, Diablo 2 should be the perfect RPG for you! Everything you are virtually saying indicates it. After all as you are literally saying with Once you hit that level cap, Arcanum ceases to be an RPG. is that the main construct is the gain of level, and not the play as a ROLE/CHARACTER, as you do so from start to end in Arcanum, no matter when you hit the level cap. Thus with that opinion neither are the role and character part of arcanum important before the vessel hits the level cap. THUS, YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE RPG PART OF A GAME IS ONLY THAT PARTS ACTIVE BEFORE HITTING THE LEVEL CAP, now re read that Saint, because the only thing that differs from arcanum before the level cap and after, is exactly what Diablo 2 got, making it your perfect “RPG�.

Re think what you said, and then if you actually still want to argue that what i would call a BPG a RPG, sure, shoot.

 

Perhaps I was wasting my time when I posted.

Oh, well.

 

I'm going to side with the uncapped here. The logic that Saint and Rosh have presented is pretty hard to argue with. Although to be really accurate, you'd need some sort of depreciation of experience points as your character ages. :smile: I was a hell of a lot smarter back in high school than I am now, but I blame alcohol for that.

and getting a bit OT, Alcohol in an RPG should enhance your melee combat abilities, but you get little to no experience while under the influence because you're not likely to remember it the next day.

I don't like level caps at all, I find character advancement to be a big carrot in front of my nose when RPing. The excitement of finally being able to build a certain tech item or learn a new spell is like open presents on christmas day, but I know I can put that LGR to good use, I'm still trying to figure out what I am going to do with the 4 sets of towels I got last Dec 25.

And back OT. Why the f*** would someone give towels as a gift? I'm a hoopy frood who knows where my towel is. It's an essential f***ing item. If I didn't have a towel, I'd go buy one ASAP, and steal one if I had to, why did 4 of my family members decide to give me towels? If it was a hint to wash more, they should've given me some soap, or paid my hot water bill for me.

I hear playing on hard difficulty gives less experience, anyone experimented?

 

did you read what i wrote? i never said that you didn't need stats, i said that you didn't need progression in the form of stats.

that you need a vessel to contain the role you play.

rules to restrict you, and freedom to create your own.

well again, i never said that you didn't need stats in a cRPG, you might have missed it but i was on about that the root of RPG is to play a character, exp progression or not, not about playing some sort of uni form construction with no rules or borders, its clearly impossible in a cRPG.

something very faulty when it comes to Arcanum, as you indeed can learn, and not just new skills or stats, so you can learn even after the level cap.

and the cRPG got that weakness, it needs a wall, formed rules, and logic.