Technological Disciplines Improved

Disclaimer: I feel this post belongs in the "Technology vs Magick" thread further down on the page but I know how strict this forum can be about grave-digging and that thread hasn't had a response since September.

Also this all a rather pointless exercise since Arcanum isn't going to be patched anytime soon... or ever. Still, I think it's fun to talk about.

I know for a long time that a lot of people have felt technology and magick in Arcanum are not balanced. I agree with this, though it occurred to me there is one place where I think they are balanced. I am referring to the electrical discipline. By investing points in this field you get +4 dexterity, allowing you to raise any skill based on DX to expert level, you gain what basically amounts to spot traps mastery, you gain a melee weapon, you gain a "helmet" with 20 durability (and as I recall makes arrows and bullets miss more often), you gain armor that regenerates your health, and you gain a useful "firearm" that is effective against just about every enemy in the game.

Really, it's an amazing discipline compared to all the others. With a doctorate in electrical you are hard pressed to find another discipline that you need because all of your bases are so well covered. Even without any followers all you might need at this point is two ranks of mechanical so that you can disarm (most) traps, and you might want two ranks of chemistry to make your own charges. You don't really need anything else though.

On one hand one might think electrical is overpowered, but on the contrary I think it is the other disciplines that are mostly underpowered.

With tech you must invest 11 points (assuming no modifiers) just to be able to qualify to buy your tech schematics. In total you spend 18 character points just getting access to your equipment but then you must spend the appropriate points buying ranks in skills that use that equipment and more often than not you'll need to spend points on attributes needed to raise those skills to usable levels.

That is why electrical is so great. The charged rings enable you to get expert in melee, which means using your shocking staff, without having to put any points in dexterity. The only thing that could make electrical better is a way to raise your perception so you can use your tesla rod.

A mage puts points in willpower and unless they're buying divination spells are generally getting access to abilities that have immediate utility in combat and otherwise without having to spend ANY additional points. In fact a mage doesn't need to put points into ANY skills and they're still playable. Can you imagine a technologist with several doctorates but no skills?

Anyway... onto my problems with each discipline itself and improvements I would make.

Herbology: Instead of all the items in this discipline being healing items, some of them could be offensive? Say you mash up some plants that when rubbed in someone's eyes cause blindness? You could work in paralysis and poison to this discipline too. There are just as many dangerous herbs as there are beneficial ones. In real time items like this wouldn't be too useful, but in turn-based I think they'd work just fine. An enemy gets close to you and use use this eye-powder on 'em and now he is automatically under the effects of blindness (which lowers perception and speed to one, I think).

Chemistry: Actually, I think this one is fine. When enemies get close you have powerful poison (which lowers strength and dexterity), "nightmare" in the form of hallucinate, paralysis, and the ability to knock enemies out cold instantly. Animal scent is useful for overland travel if you want to avoid encounters, and I'm not certain, but it also might make animals less aggressive in actual instances (been a while since I've used it).

Electrical: Already covered, and it's basically perfect. About the only thing I'd change is the electric light. It ought to work much like the light sources placed in the map, providing several squares of light so that any enemy which gets close to you will be illuminated, eliminating lighting penalties.

Therapeutics: I haven't used this one too much yet to comment much on it. I have a character planned who will be getting a doctorate in it. One small thing though: the elixir of persuasion should provide at least a full rank of persuasion. Hell, maybe it should provide three full ranks (expert)? Charisma wouldn't be worthless to a technologist since you'd still need it to get max followers. However someone pursuing the therapeutics discipline could otherwise save a full 7 character points and still gain access to most of important persuasion options. Maybe it would need to be moved to the third or fourth rank of therapeutics? I think it's an interesting idea.

Gun Smithy: I think this one is sort of fine, sort of not fine. The hand-crafted flintlock seems like a waste of space to me. The fine revolver should be the first rank, then the repeater rifle, then the hushed revolver, and then maybe switch around the positions of the looking glass rifle and handcannon. I think the problem with this discipline is with guns in general: they tend to be weak or if they aren't weak they take a big commitment to get, or paradoxically, there is a better alternative that requires no commitment at all. Droch's Warbringer is a good example, actually. Someone who has a doctorate in gun-smithy might feel cheated when they find this schematic and see that anyone could make this firearm which out-classes even the mighty elephant gun.

To rectify this I think that all the gun-smithy firearms should have large resistances to magickal auras. The hushed-revolver should have the same stats as the fine revolver, only with the bonus of not making any noise. The hand-cannon should perhaps have moderate to-hit bonus, but very short range, being nearly a melee weapon. Basically, this thing has no accuracy after a few feet but as long as roughly at arms length and you point this in their general direction you are going to maim them, badly. The elephant gun is its true successor in that it captures the long-range of the looking glass rifle (or nearly so) with the high damage ratings of the handcannon. I'd remove the two found elephant guns in the game, or maybe replace with them a "generic" elephant gun that isn't as powerful, weighs more, and has less magickal resistance. In addition I think I'd add another schematic in Vendigroth that called for using a large bore Vendigrothian rifle and a non-generic elephant gun to make second even more powerful rifle. In this way the gun-smithy technologist gets a unique pay-off for their labors in the form of the ultimate firearm.

Beyond that, I guess we'd have to get into discussing ways to improve firearms as a whole, but I don't feel like doing that with this post.

Onto the next discipline...

Smithy: I think this one is fine, actually. It's a given that a smith will be producing melee weapons and armor generally intended for melee users. This discipline gives you exactly that. The real bonus is that the weapons and armor you get weigh much less than their non-smithy counterparts, in the case of the weapons this results in higher speed. The helmet of vision is a nice perk as well. Pure ore does feel like a little bit of a waste though, even though I understand the concept behind it. Perhaps it would be better replaced by dwarven ore or something...

Come to think of it, perhaps the dwarven gauntlets could be moved higher up on the tech tree. In their place could be a gorget that adds armor class and some durability. Furthermore, the now harder to produce dwarven gauntlets could be an ingredient to make machined gauntlets. Perhaps like the machined platemail they should have a strength bonus, a smaller one of-course.

Mechanical: This one is hit and miss. The trap springer is nice, but you do still need to have a way to detect traps in the first place. That's fine though, you can just puts points into spot-trap or save time (and points) by buying three ranks of electrical. The spike trap is... pretty useless. I think the bear trap should have been the first schematic, and it should weigh less. I mean all it needs to do is catch somebodies foot. As it stands it is big and heavy enough that you'd think you were using it to stop dinosaurs. The auto skeleton-key is nice, but personally I think it should have a bigger bonus, perhaps equivalent to one full rank of pick-locks. Eye gear is good, but I think it could be better. Considering it comes later on its respective tech tree than do charged rings, I think eye gear should have +4 to perception. Enough that with it you've automatically raised your perception high enough to buy expert status in any perception based skill. That's more than fair I think considering the investment. Of-course Magnus will easily be able to make this for you too so perhaps it should be rank 5 of mechanical to give players a reason to pursue mechanical themselves.

The clockwork decoy... I've never really found a use for. It's a nice concept but I'm not sure how you are supposed to get use out of it. I'd replace it maybe with something that you place on locked doors and treasure-chests to automatically open them. Maybe it would work on any lock difficulty except very hard? By this point you've spent some 15 CP's... Or hell, maybe spring-heeled shoes that give your character increased speed?

After that you've got the mechanical arachnid which I think is fine, though maybe they should be faster. They really are painfully slow and it's one hell of an investment to be able to build automatons.



One last thing: I'm thinking there should be two ultimate technological helmets you can make that combine the effects of the goggled helmet, miner's helmet, and chapeau of magnetic inversion.

Perhaps a Vendigrothian war-helmet that which is made from the goggled helmet and chapeau. Then perhaps a different helmet combines the miner's helmet and goggled helmet together, giving you a helmet with +4 perception, high armor class, and which illuminates your surroundings to eliminate lighting penalties.

Some kind of technological "necklace" might be neat too. Maybe something like a respirator? It could increase fire and poison resistance.

To continue the idea I had regarding spring-heeled shoes, maybe a found schematic could combine those with metal boots or something for "machined boots" that have a larger speed bonus and of-course provide better protection?

It also occurs to me that there could be some poisons (either herbology or chemistry) that weaken enemies, much like the spell of the same name. Something interesting could be a dart-gun (have it fire arrows?), providing a safer means of delivering these effects at range. (could also be another type of techno-bow)

Ultimately, I don't think a technologist should need to raise their base stats too much to become competent at a given skill, provided they invested in the right technological discipline. After all, why do all that work? That is what technology is for; to compensate for man's innate weaknesses.


Edit: Wow, I just realized I forgot an entire technological discipline. I can't believe that. I mean I must have proof-read my post a dozen times. There were some grammar errors I had to fix too... and I'm sure I missed a few anyway.

So without further adieu...

Explosives: This discipline is mostly okay. It should be obvious from the names of the schematics that you'll be making things meant to be thrown. This isn't much of a problem because just two ranks in electrical will allow you to achieve expert rank in throwing with most characters.

None the less I would make a few small changes. Molotov cocktails seem out of place. I mean really, is that something a technologist would rely on? I think you should be able to buy those or if you get a schematic for them anybody can make them without needing even a tech manual. Instead let's move every item in the discipline down one rank.

Smoke grenades then... what are they good for? I guess they blind everybody. Theoretically you might find use for them if you were a prowler or if there more ranged enemies in the game. Say you toss one of these at a gunner or bowman and his accuracy falls to crap.

Flash grenades should lower enemy accuracy.

The other grenades are fine... though the fire obstruction should be more potent. If enemies are determined enough to march through it they should come out the other end missing reasonable chunk of their health points and have much of their armor singed.

So, what new item do we add to compensate for getting rid molotovs? Perhaps the concussion grenade could be worked into it, with slightly modified effects. In addition to the knock back and damage, it could have a stun effect as well.


I had another idea for another schematic too...

"The Enflamed Mechanized Arachnid"

Tired of watching brutish ogres smash your expensive mechanical arachnids? Are you just simmering with rage? Then the enflamed mechanized arachnid is your savior! Just combine a flamethrower with a normal mechanized arachnid and you'll have an eight-legged companion with a fiery breath that will have even the dullest ogre turning the other way!

Spicy!

 

Considering the Pyrotechnic Axe, I think that techies can last quite a while against their opposition. By the way, Isn't there already a type of gun that can deliver a dose of something to your opponents? I believe it could stun, or paralyse or so. The idea of adding in another tech bow seems interesting, considering the fact that at the moment there only are the Compound Bow, Pyrotechnic Bow and Envenomed Bow. Compared to the amount of magickal bows in the game (including the reward for the Master quest) it seems to me the Magick Archers are quite spoiled.

(Maybe a Charged Bow...)

Molotovs are very useful, for a single CP you have a rather reliable damage source that can last you through the BMC (golems, remember?), if you're willing to carry around enough, and/or let your followers carry some.

 

Actually, that is something I forgot to bring up. I actually think the pyrotechnic axe is a little too good considering how easy it is acquired. There should perhaps be just the one schematic found in the game for it (beneath Wilsboughy's house, IIRC) and the ingredients shouldn't be so easily acquired. Perhaps it should require a fire obstruction like the pyrotechnic bow and flamethrower require.

A charged bow might be interesting too. More variety is always good, I say.

With regards to molotovs, I never said they weren't useful. I just feel they are a bit out of place as a technological degree. Just about anyone can put one together, a layman in other words. A novice should be making their own cherry bombs at the very least.

The main point I wanted to address is that for the most part a character who invests in a technological discipline will be able to do very little without also investing in a skill. A mage character doesn't have this problem, for the most part, because most of the magickal colleges provide you with an offensive spell or two. If a devout mage can play through the game without needing any skills then I think a devout technologist should be able to a variety of stat bonuses from their created gear that allows them to be competent and most any skill with a minimum of points invested in it.

Being able to reach "expert" in anything (assuming a base stat of 8 ) is quite reasonable I think. To get mastery you'll still have to spend CP's raising the stat and the skill in most cases. There would still be a bonus to having naturally high stats and skill levels because then you'd be free to equip different gear.

Anyway, did you have any thoughts/criticism of the alternative schematics I proposed?

I rather like the idea of spring-heeled shoes and a gasmask (that is equipped on the necklace slot).

The spring-heeled shoes even have their ties in the time period what with the tales of Spring Heeled Jack. I'm surprised something like that isn't in the game already.

 

A Charged Bow would have made me really happy. It's such a glaring omission, considering that swords and axes come in Pyrotechnic, Envenomed and Charged flavors and that there's even a Charged rifle.

It wouldn't take much to keep me satisfied. Maybe a base damage of 1-10 combined with the same random electrical damage caused by a Charged Sword.

I disagree about the Pyro Axe, though. It's very, very helpful to have some good weapons that people can make just using tech manuals such as that axe or the Charged Sword. Having to either learn enough Smithy to make a Feather-Weight Axe or wait for Magnus to learn the schematic seems adequate to me.

But then... I'm not crazy about how hard it is to make the Pyro Bow. If you don't cheat and use Essence of Intellect to get your INT high enough to learn how to make a Fire Obstruction, that's a lot of CP to invest in making a weapon I've always found a little disappointing.

You make a good point about Eye Gear. I'm happy to get the two extra points, but it would be nice to get a better bonus without having to jump through all the hoops involved in making the Goggled Helm.

Maybe there should be night vision goggles? Like, instead of raising your Perception they reduce lighting penalties. To keep them from being too good, they could be light amplification goggles that put you at risk of being blinded around torches (or followers using Fire spells). Then if you wanted to have a better version, there could be infra-red goggles that don't have any drawbacks (except maybe they don't work on undead creatures due to low body temperature?). Somebody more clever than me could probably design eye gear that gives you Dark Sight while you're wearing them to approximate what I'm rambling about.

 

The recipe for the Pyrotechnic Bow could be changed to require a Molotov instead. It's still pyrotechnic, much easier to make, and still requires some Explosives proficiency.

What we also lack is technological acidic weapons. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Acid you can make using Chemistry damage armor? In that case, it would be simply combining a sword/axe/bow with a bottle of Acid to provide the same effect (could be 5-10 durability damage for balance).

 

*Pours acid over a sword, watches the blade melt* I don't think there's actually something like acid damage, but I'm not sure what kind of damage acid does in the game. Maybe electrical.

 

You say, Langolier, that the Electrical Discipline is balanced, because it can give a character pretty much everything he would ever need. I, myself, believe this is the definition of overpowered. Just like a mage simply wouldn't be overly good with just one maxed out magick college, a technologist shouldn't be too powerful with just one maxed out tech discipline.

Just like a technologist needs about three fully developed disciplines (21 CPs) to be a good technologists, a good mage needs about 4 fully developed magick colleges (20 CPs) to truly become a jack of all trades and achieve the invaluable 100 MA, I'd say.

You argue that while both technologists and mages need to max out their main stat (INT for tech, WP for magick), the technologists additionally need to invest in skills, while a mage can cope with not having any skills at all. That is true, but keep in mind that a really good mage will need to max out INT as well, firstly to stay true with the character and secondly to maximize his ability of controlling as many spells at once as possible.

Based on what I said above, one could observe that a technologist with maxed out INT, 3 maxed out tech disciplines and 3 maxed out skills needs just about the same amount of CPs as a mage with maxed out WP, maxed out INT and 4 maxed out magick colleges. I would say it's quite balanced.

I like your respirator/gas mask idea. It's quite demeaning that techies have to rely on the few custom neutral necklaces (Cassie's Necklace, Pelojian's Amulet, Jewel of Hebe, Finger of Mannox and that's it, I believe) in order to have any bonuses from their neckwear.

I believe you mean the Tranquilizer Gun, which chews through the enemy's fatigue like there's no tomorrow.

We could use a Pyrotechnic Sword, too.

That is correct.

The Acid Gun deals normal damage while damaging armor at the same time (probably an additional script has something to do with it). I'm guessing the same goes for the Corrosive Acid.

 

I'm confused now because I have definitely seen a schematic for a Pyro Sword. I think it's just really rare.

 

No, it doesn't exist. At all.

 

A quick search taught me that there was/is some art for the Pyrotechnic Sword at Arcanum Club and that rroyo planned/plans to add the Pyrotechnic Sword in an A:WIP update, but that's about it.

 

I'm an avid technology fan, and I don't think it's drastically unbalanced although there are a few exceptions. The first time I ever played the game it was with a Force mage, and to this day it remains the easiest playthrough I've ever had. I remember I didn't understand why people would complain about the BMC mines because that character simply Disintegrated all the golems. I don't think there's any one thing on the tech side that powerful.

Therapeutics and Herbology are excellent (although I usually let Jayna Sykes handle them instead of my PC). Even fairly early on with Therapeutics you can get cheaply-made concoctions that boost DEX, STR, and PER with a nice, long, useful duration. Herbology of course has the sweet Healing Salve/Fatigue Restorer cash cow, which never really stops being useful.

I'd say the weakness of tech is Firearms, which, despite being extremely fun, are just SNAFU overall. I think my favorite example is the High Velocity Pistol, which is expensive and has quite high requirements to make. The result: it's minimum damage is 2 higher and its rate of fire is slower than the Fine Revolver almost all gun techies can craft by level 5.

When I play a gunslinger, I generally use a Fate Point to get a Hand Cannon early on, and it doesn't feel like cheating in terms of making the game easier. It just prevents me from being frustrated by how ineffective most of the other guns are.

 

Well, maybe you do have a point. The flow spectrometer I think could be argued to be way too effective. With it you don't need any points in spot traps. Perhaps it should have a failure rate (it might have one now, if so it is very small). In addition maybe it should only detect magickal traps but not mechanical ones. Whatever the case I do not think it is fair that the spectrometer completely negates the utility of the spot-traps skill. At the same time, the magickal spell with the same (or similar) effect should perhaps have the same problem: detecting magickal traps but not technological ones.

Indeed, however a mage doesn't need any extra intelligence if they're casting offensive spells. The extra intelligence is only useful for duration spells and in this case a mage can also buy an essence of intellect to gain max intelligence whenever they need it. Putting actual points in intelligence isn't required. A technologist can abuse this too, for a while, but as I recall once your aptitude gets higher the essence of intellect won't work at all. Further stat boosts are obtained through theraputics, but of-course that will require nearly as many points invested as you'd get raising the attributes manually.

Not to mention that a technologist will probably need dexterity, strength, and perception raised to reasonable levels. Otherwise they won't have the ability to reach master status in skills and/or they won't have the strength to wield their items. The mage you described just needs 12 points in intelligence.

A technologist starting with 8 in every stat and mastering smithy and gunsmithy will need...

11 INT
10 PE
10 DX
4 ST
5 Melee
5 Firearms
7 Gunsmithy
7 Smithy

That's 59 points... no points have been put into dodge, but most melee characters would put at least a few points in there. Of-course a techie is likely to take two points into electrical for charged rings, which gives them a net gain of 2 CP's. So okay then, 57 points. A techie is also likely to put one more point into electrical for the flow spectrometer, so 58 points. He'll also probably make a goggled helmet, so there is three points saved... so 55.

This character has:

19 INT
15 PE (+3) for 18
12 STR
14 DX (+4) for 18
Firearms Mastery
Melee Mastery
Spot Traps "Mastery"

A mage with the same base stats mastering four colleges and raising INT to 20 requires...

10 WP
12 INT
20 Spells

So 42 vs 55

Let's assume the mage went with Dark Necromancy, Force, Fire, and Stone

The mage gained a powerful protect spell, an area attack spell that damages anything near the mage, three spells to produce followers, a spell which raises speed (isn't it like 8 points at 100 MA?), another spell which raises strength (8 points as well IIRC), and a one-hit kill in the form of disintigrate. The mage also gained fire damage attacks, electrical attacks, and two non-elemental attacks (IIRC: stone throw isn't "rock damage" it's just regular damage).

The mage still has 22 CP's to spend and the technologist only has 9.

To be fair, there are a large number of college combinations that could represent those 20 spells and some of them might not be nearly as powerful, prompting the mage to spend more points. Still, the mage spent fewer points in total and gained even more powerful stat boosts. They also aren't required to invest any points in intelligence.

If the mage decided to rely on essence of intellect he'd have a whole 12 more points left to spend.

Also I don't think the technologist I described would have 100 TA. The mage however would be maxed.

Edit: according to the character planner the technologist will have 90 TA. That's potent, but it's still less than the mage.

 

Why would you go Smithy/Gunsmithy? Those 2 technological branches in no way synergize with each other.

It'd be either:

Mechanical + Smithy + Electrical
Gunsmithy + Electrical + (?)
Explosives + Chemistry + Electrical

As you can see, if you go gunsmith, you don't really need many other disciplines (except if you want to outfit your melee companions or whatever), so less points need to be spent to max it out. In other two discipline combos, you do not need to care about perception.

On topic of TA: 2 technological proficiencies equal 9 TA (Source: Muro), so 20 proficiencies = 90 TA. For gunsmiths, don't forget that Firearms skill itself adds TA, too. Besides, TA is not very useful to a technologist. It's too random to be relied upon against mages.

 

They granted you the goggled helmet and the machined platemail, giving 2 ST and 3 PE. However, let's use a different build...

This requires at least...

11 IN
6 DX
5 Melee
21 Learned Schematics

43... and again no points were put into dodge and this time no points were put into strength. Of-course we can save 4 points by not taking electrical to max. So there's 39. That's less than the mage, assuming dodge isn't maxed. This character has 85 TA and 20 points to spend if he masters dodge.

He can make automatons, and while those are potent the components are hard to come by. Miniature steam engines and dwarven steel are hard to get.

11 INT
10 PE
4 STR
14 Learned schematics
5 Firearms

44 points. 90 TA

He'll need 2 more ST if he wants to wield the Tesla Gun or Blade Launcher, but that's player choice.

11 IN
6 DX
17 Learned schematics (stop electrical at three)
5 throwing

25 points left over and 85 TA.

True... though the combinations above still may wind up with fewer points to spend than the mage (if they use essence of intellect), less TA, and either fewer followers (summoned or otherwise) or harder to replace followers.

A fire elemental can be summoned again and a gain, but an automaton is done once broken.

These characters could also use more strength.

You have proved a point though. I think the example I used in my last post was biased, your examples are better.

None the less, I think the mage will easily be more powerful. Let us not forget that there are no tech equivalents for disintigrate or tempus fugit or hasten. In addition, things like nightmare and resurrection require a bigger investment for a technologist than they do a mage, which ultimately limits the technologist's versatility. Agility of Fire and Strength of Earth can't be forgotten either, those spells are quite potent and can greatly extend what a mage can do with their left over points after maxing INT and getting enough willpower to buy 20 spells.

Perhaps I did exaggerate the imbalance when I posted this thread, so I'll concede that.

Once a mage has 18 willpower he only needs to spend at max 5 points to gain any magickal abilitly he desires. A technologist needs to spend as few as three to as many as 14.

Nightmare requires explosive grenades and hallucinate, and at least a few points of throwing.

Resurrection requires a doctorate in herbology and re-animators weigh like 1200 stone last I checked.

Techs also have to carry around weight to use any of their abilities, mages do "need" (for practical purposes) fatigue restoring potions but those don't tend to weigh as much as all the tech items. Armor and weapons can be heavy.

So in the end, I still think the game is favorable to magick, but not to the degree I originally did. You and Muro brought me around a bit.

Edit: Also I disagree that TA is not useful. In fact it is quite essential when fighting ghoul guards, fire elementals, ore golems, and any magickally inclined beings. The to-hit penalty can be lethal. Mages on the other hand don't need to worry about encountering highly tech-aligned bad-guys until much later in the game.

 

I agree completely. I'm playing a gun smith right now and I had kind of forgotten how much it sucks when you don't have anything better than a Fine Revolver. Even with Expert training from Doc Roberts, my character wasn't very effective in combat compared to, say, somebody with a little magickal aptitude and a Serrated Chakram.

My big beef with Firearms is that most of the guns you can make from found schematics have some kind of drawback that would keep most people from wanting to actually use them instead of their trusty Looking Glass Rifle (or whatever their primary weapon is). That takes a lot of the fun out of things like the Blade Launcher or the Charged Accelerator Gun.

There's probably a fine line between making those weapons actually useful and making them too good. But it would be nice to at least reduce some of those ammo requirements.

 

You need six points in Explosives if you want to mess around with a Flame Thrower and a Doctorate in Chemistry if you want a Tranquilizer Gun. So it starts getting tough if you want to make everything that sounds interesting.

 

This, so much.

I was so excited when I found out you could make a Grenade Launcher, and then I find out it does 1-10 damage. Seriously, Troika? I mean, I understand it's a weapon which has the potential to hit several enemies at once, but 5.5 average damage is just ridiculous. I'd have at least set it to 5-10 or maybe even 10-10.

True, true, but neither of these weapons is essential for your normal playthrough. Tranquilizer gun is good for pacifists, but in that case you don't really have to fight - just knock out cold a few annoying enemies, and talk your way out of the rest.

 

The Sense Invisible spell's effectiveness is (or should be) dependent on MA, so its fair that it's 100% effective for a 100 MA mage and hardly effective for a low tier mage.

As for the Flow Spectometer, there must have been something wrong with it in my game (I tried it out only in the Polish 1.0.7.0 version so far), because I was hardly able to spot any traps at all with it. If it is 100% effective for any character as you say, though, I would say it should work like a technological equivalent of Sense Invisible (namely have an effectiveness based on TA) to be fair.

The last mage I played used mostly Wall of Fire as his offensive spell. Even if he would stick to the less effective Fireflash instead, there would still be some spells which would require maintaining, and depending on potions is kind of awkward. A mage can go along without Intelligence, but a good and tactically skilled mage will know IN is a must.

There is one more thin you're forgetting about in your calculation, namely Constitution.

Naturally, one could argue that a mage doesn't need Intelligence nor Constitution to be able to cast his spells, but compare two mages, one with 8 in CN and IN, dependable on potions like some magick druggie, and the other one with maxed out CN and IN, and tell me which is the true mage.

It is partly about ideology (the whole point of being a mage is being able to do anything you want exclusively with you mind and body, not depending on items like technologists) and partly about convenience. Not having to buy, carry around and control the usage of potions is convenient, so is investing 5 character points just to learn the Teleport spell. It's simply something a typical mage does, even though it costs him numerous CPs. In the end, a mage can end up without any CPs left, even if all he invested in were spells and magick related stats.

Also, I must say, Langolier, that I am under the impression that you are making the mistake of justifying the need of using incredible amounts of CPs by your technologist by claiming he absolutely needs to be to be a jack of all trades. For example, you say he has to max out Dexterity and Perception, become a master in both Melee and Firearms and invest a few points in Strength too. Whatever for? Specialization is the key to success. Stick with Firearms, ignore Dexterity and Melee, wear a machined plate if you have to (and seeing how low the MSR of Droch's Warbringer and the Hand Cannon are, you probably won't), ask Sebastian to build you some Charged Rings and a Flow Spectrometer (it's the least he can do to repay you for doing his job for him in the Boil) and and swim in unused CPs.

If something is available in a shop, it isn't really hard to get.

All followers do in the long run is steal the XPs that are rightfully yours, so why bother with additional followers?

If you do care about summoned/created followers, though, notice how every other evil elven sorcerer you encounter can summon a Fire or Earth Elemental, a creature burrowed just for a moment or two from a different dimension. The sight of a summoned elemental quickly becomes as common as an orc wielding a rusty axe. You, on the other hand, have your very own automaton, a technological marvel associated with only three entities in Arcanum: the legendary geniuses of the Iron Clan, the mysterious and forgotten scientists of Vendigroth and you, oh mighty and unsurpassed technologist. You are the only person in the world still capable of building such miracles from scratch!

(Well, maybe you and the scientist from Ashbury, if he's still alive anyway. Who knows what happened to the old nut)

It's all about prestige and prestige is payed in the effort needed to achieve something.

Wow there.
A Reanimator weights 300 stone.
The ingredients for it weight 7 stone.
Quickload weights 0 stone.

What version are you playing? It has 3 - 24 dmg in the latest UAP (greater on average than the 10-10 you suggested). The area damage can make a lot of a difference, too, since you can gather several enemies in one place and then deal the damage to all of them at once.

Where did I say that?
2 points invested in tech disciplines or skills = 11 TA
The means that one needs to invest 19 CPs in tech in order to achieve 100 TA (assuming he starts at 0). So Langolier's character with maxed out Smithy, Gun Smithy and Firearms would invest just enough CPs to have 100 TA (it if weren't capped, it would be 104,5).

On the topic of creating guns from bought or found schematics, it's a great idea done wrong. Arcanum offers an impressing variety of buildable guns, but what's the point if hardly anything is better than the Hand Cannon or the Elephant Gun which you can build without searching for any schematics? Sadly, the creators didn't bother calculating the AvD/AP of the guns they were making, otherwise they would see that most guns from found schematics, requiring more effort and additional proficiencies, are actually crap compared to the ones available from simply investing into Gun Smithy.

While I'm at it, something I forgot to point out last time:

Seeing how the Hand Cannon deals exactly 50% more Average Damage per Action Point than the Looking Glass Rifle, I can't agree with you saying that the Cannon should be lower than the Rifle in the Gun Smithy technological tree.

 

That would be reasonable. However in my games it has always worked almost flawlessly as soon as it is built. Sometimes I get it before going through Schuyler and Sons and it works perfectly there. Sometimes I do manage to step on traps, but say, in Black Mountain Mines that on average be one or two traps that the spectrometer misses.

I have to disagree with you here. Essence of intellect are easily acquired, being very common from gypsies, they don't cost a whole lot, and they don't weigh much. The duration is certainly enough to carry you through any serious battle where you actually need to be tactical with your spells. It's a big advantage that a techie can't match (well, after a while at least). I suppose one could argue that depending on the build a techie could use essence of intellect to get all the schematics he needs and then never worry about intelligence again.

I don't think constitution is all that important at all actually. I've played many mages and most of them I didn't bother raising their constitution much at all, sometimes I left it quite low. A patient player doesn't have to worry about it as long as they keep enough fatigue potions nearby, or have a decent staff, or don't mind waiting around for a minute or two after fatigue draining battles.

Indeed, the true strength of technology is in its ability to be mass produced. Once I can build an elite platemail for myself I can also build one for Magnus. If I'm patient enough I can build a dozen automatons. Then again a mage can use his spells as soon as he can buy them and other than fatigue potions he never needs to locate supplies. If I get a doctorate in smithy I can't build a second elite plate until I reach the Wheel Clan (I don't remember there being any dwarven steel inside the BMC mines)

A few things:

You are right that I was making a mistake with the build I used when demonstrating how many more points a techie might spend. Another poster pointed that out to me. If I'm going to invest in both melee and firearms then I should be prepared to spend most of my CP's making the build work. Fair enough.

However... dexterity is of benefit to every combat skill. The extra speed means more shots with my gun. That's one of the weaknesses of firearms as a combat skill. Bow, Dodge, Melee, and Throwing naturally grow in effectiveness as you buy ranks not only because your accuracy with the skill itself increases, but because your speed (and AC) increase as well. All a firearms specialist gets is the ability to see further but often that doesn't matter because enemies close the distance anyway. More strength means I can wield better guns (the mechanized gun, elephant gun, tesla rod/gun, grenade launcher, flamethrower, and blade launcher all have MSR's ranging anywhere from 10 to 14 or 15). Unless I circumvent the storyline I won't be getting Droch's Warbringer until the game is nearly over and Sebastian only appears after you get back from Quintarra.

Not every technologist needs those first three ranks of electrical, but they're really gimping themselves if they don't go for it. I suppose that is an argument in favor of electrical being overpowered. It is so good that every tech character wants an initial investment in it. Perhaps the charged rings and flow spectrometer should be later in the tech tree? Or perhaps Wilsboughy and Sebastian should spawn when you first reach Tarant. That would certainly be a blessing for persuasion masters. I'd rather have all the major cities available from the very start as long as you follow the right quest path... (I mean technically you CAN reach Caladon but it feels like cheating). It'd be nice to get persuasion master early and recruit Geoffrey and Torian without having them be under-level (for good aligned characters anyway). Getting a bit off topic there...

That is true... and ever so aggravating. I can't remember if there was a mes file that let you fix that or not. Personally I like to take them for the story and because followers like Vollinger, Magnus, and Jayna allow you to focus on other technological disciplines and/or delay putting points in certain disciplines. One might argue that the technological followers are still putting too many points in each tech tree. Perhaps it would be better if they each only bought the first two ranks of their preferred disciplines? Again... I'm straying off topic.

While that's true, it is also true that to build an automaton I had to max both mechanical and smithy. The mage spent only about a third the points and got a companion that is more expendable while still being just as effective in combat. Don't get me wrong, automatons are awesome and you're right that tech has the advantage of giving you a greater sense of accomplishment, at least in my opinion. That is what I like about tech: with a magick character I become uber without any real effort. For my tech's though it is a long and often times frustrating road before I can reach the point at which I can march into a crowd of demons and then effortlessly kill them all with one paralysis grenade and a mechanical dagger.

I'm not saying technology is completely broken compared to magick, I just feel that it is being a bit slighted.

You've all made good points that ultimately the point investments aren't nearly as imbalanced as I thought they were. I was definitely taking the wrong approach. Perhaps I need to change up how I play. I still feel that some of the learned schematics leave something to be desired though. I still stand by my point that the fact that a mage can but will never need to spend many points on attributes or skills warrants the technological discipline providing moderate bonuses to attributes at higher TA's and degree levels.

Edit: And again there are no tech equivalents to uber spells like disintigrate, hasten, or tempus fugit. Things like dominate, nightmare, and raise undead are harder for a techie to reproduce than they are for a mage.

Are you sure? I could have sworn it was more than that. Good point about the ingredients though. Of-course if you don't get a doctorate in Herbology then you can't obtain one of the necessary ingredients.

As for quick-loading... I try to avoid doing that unless I die or a character I want to continue through the story with dies and I can't resurrect them. Got to limit how much I cheat, you know?

While that is true, the investment to make a grenade launcher is pretty high and you still wind up with a mediocre weapon. You need to be able to build an elephant gun, explosive grenades, and you need some 14 strength to wield the damn thing without suffering MSR penalties. The flamethrower has the same problem, which is all the more annoying when the pyrotechnic axe requires only a tiny investment to make (or even NONE) and it does more fire damage and has a much lower MSR and is one-handed (naturally).

I mean... why shouldn't the grenade launcher be uber? It is the combination of two powerful weapons. Yet in the end it is just a stylized explosive grenade that weighs a lot more and requires a high MSR to use, oh and it required that you spend 7 points on gun smithing.

Damage isn't everything. The real advantage of the Looking Glass Rifle is the massive to hit bonus and the range. You left out the part where I suggested altering the handcannon. I wanted it to have its range drastically shorted with a moderate to hit bonus. It wouldn't be a weapon you'd use on an enemy who as even just across the room. It'd be the kind of weapon that you wait until they are right in your face before using. Massive damage and accuracy at that range, but also great risk to your life...

Or maybe scrap the to hit bonus and just give it much shorter range but a much tighter damage spread?

 

But you actually have to go through the effort of constantly returning to shops and buying potions. How horrid!

I guess it is the different way we play our games. When I play a techie, I enjoy visiting shops, replenishing my resources and ammunition and hunting for the ingredients. When I play a mage, though, I believe he should be as self-sufficient as possible. Potions and staves are helpful, but a true mage in my eyes is capable of maintaining five spells without external enhancers and is able to stay alive even if thrown naked and without any inventory into a pack of Fire Elementals.

Actually, he wouldn't be able to use any schematic requiring the Intelligence needed to learn that schematic in the first place. Proficiency isn't fooled that easily and always drops to the nearest level still comprehensible by your current Intelligence.

Is that late?

Is that late?

Is that la- OK, OK, that might be a bit late.

That is of course true. Still, as far as I remember, my gunslinger played in turn base, had a Sickly background, didn't invest in DX at all, so he has only 7 APs (11 when he created a pair of Charged Rings and later 15 with Velorien's blessing), and yet I didn't feel Dexterity is that much of a priority. One can live without it and be quite successful at it too.

The Tesla Rod actually requires only 8 Strength.

If you start with STR 8 and build yourself a Machined Plate, you'll end up with STR 11, which is enough for the Mechanized Gun and the Tesla Gun and with just one point invested in STR will be enough for an Elephant Gun as well.

The Blade Launcher's MSR is indeed high, but I always considered it a weapon good for a technologist's brute companion rather than the technologist himself. Too bad there was no such brute in the game, though, the weapon is simply perfect for a gun wielding half ogre follower.

As for the Grenade Launcher and Flame Thrower, they are weaker than the Hand Cannon as far as AvD/AP is considered, so my comment is "why bother".

I haven't heard about anyone being able to change this, sadly.

I value sentient followers because of roleplay values and when they are considered, the more the merrier, I'd say. What I meant by "why bother with additional followers" was that summoned followers are not something worth having, because all they do is steal your XP without giving anything in return. If the XP transferred to the Living One, it would be a completely different matter. Damn, I hope someone manages to do this some day.

True, but while I hardly remember summoning my first Fire Elemental, while building my first Automaton - that was something! Maybe it's it being a permanent follower, maybe it's indeed the effort of finding the schematic, earning two doctorates and constructing something about what I was not aware from the very beginning of the game, which cannot be said about the Fire Elemental.

I think that can be said about a lot of things tech - they are made for the sake of being an accomplishment. A self-given "You're awesome!" trophy of sorts.

I checked prior to writing the message, mostly to see how much do the ingredients weight. As for the reanimator itself, if memory serves right it weighted 300 stone in all of my game versions.

I wasn't trying to persuade anyone that the Grenade Launcher is good, because it isn't. I was merely stating that it is better than 1-10 dmg.

Still, should it be a good weapon? Of course. A Grenade Launcher is one of those weapons you fear in most other games, so it should be here.

It isn't?

Considering TH bonuses, the greater your skill the higher your accuracy and in the end when you'll become a master of a combat skill, you'll have >100% accuracy anyway. It can be quite high before that happens too, a firearms expert with the 10% TH bonus coming from 20 INT has quite a satisfying accuracy already.

As for range - (1) it will be moments before the enemies will be standing right next to you anyway, (2) the hardest battles occur in dungeons where range can be omitted, and (3) a master gunslinger will receive no range penalties altogether. That being said, I never did pay much attention to the range of weapon.

All of that above is why I myself represent an opinion that damage is all that matters in the long run.