Design Flaws ...

Ok, I'm sure I'm going to get MANY comments on this one. But having played Arcanum for some time and having enjoyed it DESPITE the flaws I still have to speak about them.

Design Flaw One: Mapping underground. Now let me start by stating that games that dont have VERY GOOD automapping where lots of dungeons are involved lose points in my book. Arcanum just lost points in my book.

The reason is simple. If you can get LOST with the automap available you have a problem in how you DISPLAY the automap. The problem is simple. The lighting, you can't see corners, bends, twists, curves, all you can EVER see is the areas with lights in them, creating what looks like a bunch of splotchy lit up spots. Finding your way OUT of the area becomes nigh on impossible in some of the larger areas.

Design Flaw Two: Weapon Damage and Armor Damage. Now, this has been done before, and every time I've seen it done it falls flat under the attacks of powerful creatures. The idea is good, the implementation is poor.

I was wearing some good magical armor, yet I faced off against a Seething Mass(golem type) and each hit it scored I was losing 5-10 points of armor, in addition to normal health. Now, this is a problem, if this "early" in the game, you're having problems with enchanted armor getting DESTROYED then imagine what its like later in the game?

Weapons are thankfully not as bad as I've yet to see them take more than 1 point of damage / hit. Still, this causes a problem in that you're either required to use ranged weapons, spells, or have repair mastery on your character to keep your gear intact for any amount of time.

It falls into the issue of what I call "micromanagement". Ok, I'm beating hte pulp out of them, how good of a state is my armor and weapons in. Crud! my main character is now wearing his skivvies! There goes the battle, since you HAVE to go back to town to have destroyed armor repaired, and it always costs you something in terms of armor points.

The idea of having to maintain your weapons and armor may be cool, but it detracts from the game when as EARLY as the mines you're facing opponents regularly that damage weapons and armor.

The automapping they have is period not cool. A simpler map which showed the walls, containers, major NPCs, and a few other tidbits would have been FAR FAR superior to the eye candy of a map they provided to us.

In short, Arcanum has been a fun game, but these two flaws are causing me grief, lots of it. If it keeps up I may just have to, and I hate to say this, cheat and add Repair Mastery, just to be able to in any way enjoy the game. I myself feel "cheated" because if I want to go melee I HAVE to spend points on Repair, points that should be better spent on ST, DX, CN, Melee and Dodge.

An annoyed gamer who enjoys Arcanum but could enjoy it FAR more if those two design flaws had been fixed early on.

 

I agree with you, as I found in the second to last dungeon all of my companions armor got broken, and in a few cases, went missing. I don't know where it went, but all of a sudden it was gone. Same for some of their weapons (I think the 'weapon dropped' thing is cool, but it can be a pain).

The map can be a pain, but what I hated was not being able to put down notes. I guess it's not a huge deal, but it bothered me.

My biggest complaint about the game is the NPCs. I think they have some cool characters, and generally I enjoy them, but there are a few problems:
Leveling: I like that they level with me, that's fine. But that they always start at the same level irks me. I'm sure we all know about the Zen-Virgil thing by now, but not even considering that, it's a pain. I got up to level 23 before I met P. Schuyler and by then most of the people who COULD join me were useless because of their levels.
Interaction: Ok I was spoiled by BG. I want my characters to speak up every once in awhile. They do on occassion (usually only Virgil it seems). Doesn't Sogg have anything to say about my adventures? What about Gukka? Some quests involving the characters would be cool too.
Inventory: Why do they pick up trash? It's not like they ever seem to pick up useful things.

 

If you make the floating text setting "verbose", it'll tell you when an armor or weapon is damaged.

Some weapons aren't damaged by Ore Golems, or anything that damages normal weapons. For example, the Mystic Axe can chop up Ore Golems all day long and not take a lick of damage.

Also, there are armors that have obscene durabilities. The Dread Armor had 10,000/10,000 durability.

 

Design Flaw One: Turn up your monitor brightness. If I play during the day it gets a bit hazy because of the sunlight coming in my window, but at night it's clear as day.

Design Flaw Two: As long as you don't mind losing 1% or so of your durability for repairs, it's not a big deal. I haven't had a single piece of armour or weapon damaged completely in my 2nd time through the game (this time I am a melee char, b4 I was a gunner) It's an extra thing to keep an eye on, but it's not a big issue.

IMHO the biggest design flaw is the progression to the level cap, which I seem to hit a long time before I get to the end of the game.

 

I'll go with Gareth(Section8) on this. The level cap has to be the most glaring design problem with this game. I usually hit this cap around the time I get to Caladon.

Frankly, I can't see a way to not hit it either. You really need to be of decent level to do the Black Mountain Clan mines, and The Dredge is fairly bad also. Subsequent dungeons just didn't seem as bad as those places really. However, I stop at level 50 and start over, so I can't comment on places like the Iron Clan that I haven't seen.

 

Can you write your own notes on the automap?

Can you write your own notes on the automap?

 

RE : Design Flaws ...

The level cap is probably my biggest problem with the game, although the recent arrival of technology in Arcanum seems kind of odd too when viewed strictly from a game mechanics standpoint.

Its implied in racial descriptions that many of the shorter lived races (humans in particular) embrace technology for its quick reward.

Quick reward?! What game world are they playing in? I could see this as a realistic argument if tech shops sold a much larger variety of finished products, but seeing as how invention is the rule rather than the exception, only dwarves, elves, and gnomes really have the lifespan to view technology as a quick return investment.

Case in point. A mage only needs to have 5 intelligence and 6 Willpower to cast the first level spells. With that barebones stat requirement, its possible to achieve a magick aptitude of 80 - 100% depending on race and background. With a single point invested in Intelligence, the average half ogre is just as capable a mage as the snootiest elf.

The harm and minor heal spells alone are enough to handle almost any situation when cast with high aptitude.

Instead of a level cap, I would have rather seen more requirements to achieve the pinnacle of magick. Components maybe? Or consequences to casting, perhaps. For instance, what if casting any black necromancy spell drained your alignment or reaction adjustment? What if teleport could accidentally materialize you in solid rock on a critical fail? What if a critical fail on, say, body of fire actually ignited you without protecting you? (Then when you master a school you no longer contend with that that random error, but not before this point.)

In short, why would any non dwarf (NPCs in the game world) really feel that technology was so much better for them when it takes so much more effort? Its implied that magick is the more taxing time investment of the two fields (as it should be) but in actual gameplay its the complete opposite. I'll use a gun for example. To use really effective firearms you must: 1. Research Firearms 2. Invest in bullets or components for same 3. Raise Firearms skill 4. Raise Dexterity, Perception, Intelligence,and occasionally strength 5. Still have to contend with hits, misses, and criticals. 6. Hunt down skill trainers. That's a lot of work for a character that is still primarily combat intensive.

The hardest part of technology should just be the initial discovery of a new item. Once someone has and has made their discovery public (like the university schematics), it should be fairly commonplace in tech shops. Found schematics should be an exception, as they are just that. (Lost information and private discoveries that only you have stumbled across.) But the stuff that is learned from the schools? Why aren't balanced swords in every store? Or electric lights? What exactly do all those factories in Tarant mass produce? I'm inclined to guess revolver parts, charcoal, worn ladies' boots, and rags. (Eureka! I've discovered charcoal!)

Instead of technical manuals, they should only allow increased tech knowledge by actual investment in the degrees. Then there's still a reason for pursuing them, and only these characters could create the items in the found schematics, which are by far more powerful / useful than their university counterparts.

(unrelated - Anyone else think its odd that you can accurately throw a normal boomerang further than the average arrow or bullet, regardless of your skill or stats?)

 

I agree about the tech problems.

The first character I played was a dwarf marksman. Although I had a Fine Revolver almost as soon as I entered Shrouded Hills, I still did fairly poorly in combat. On top of that, I never had any money or supplies and I had only whatever armor I could find. I had to start over before I even spoke to Schuyler.

After trying some different character types and getting used to the game, I started another dwarf marksman. This time, I am doing a bit better, but I practically have to cheat to do so. I stole Ristezze's key and I keep reselling valuable items. What's really bad, though, is that I can't think of any quick fix that could put in a patch. Marksmen may be stuck with inherently inferior combat abilities.

 

Oh.. Pyrotechnic Axe isn't damaged by beating Ore Golems with it also.

 

I had a human sharpshooter with some gunsmithy and I did ok.
Just max firearms first , you dont have to put any points to intelligence, just use potion of intelligence when you levelup and when you make guns. I made throught the game fairly well (just skipped couple battles).
The weapons I used were 1. Fine revolver 2.Looking glass rifle 3. Long Range revolver 4. Warbringer
Some of the guns require alot of strength or use alot of bullets, so i didnt use them.
Followers were only virgil, magnus and the dog.

 

Against golems and the sort, blunt weapons and axes don't take damage--usually. Naturally, there are some exceptions to the rule.

A problem I have with armor damage is my half-ogre has to be very careful. I've found 3 suits of magical leather he can wear. That's it. No chain mail, no plate, no dread armor. After the Dredge, my armor was down to 30/80. Tried to have it repaired at 3 different places (fortunately I saved before each time.) At 2 of them, I ended up with an armor of 18/18, and 22/23. Yep, these professional smiths kept ruining my armor. So for the bigger guys, armor conservation is EXTREMELY important. Admittedly, with half-ogres, by upping your strength and dex, you usually don't need armor.

I don't mind the map scheme, since most dungeons are very simplistic in their set-up. However, the ability to make notes would have been priceless. I don't no how many times I've had to wander around Tarant looking for that one street address or random guy, only having to backtrack because of the damn canals.

A question I have is why do balanced swords and feather-weight axes sell for so little, if you can find someone to take them? Most tech smiths I've come across won't buy them, and they are some of the best weapons in the game. Heck, even the dwarven smith who sells feather-weight axes won't buy them.

 

Map problem ...

The problem ISNT in seeing the map, I've got gamma correction and all that set properly. I can see the map and the details properly. However its how they displayed the map, with all those gaping holes where there isnt any light. This kills the connection between areas, it looks like one spotwork pattern to my eyes.

While some may say that its more realistic, I give the middle finger to realism in terms of mapping. I want a map that is simple to look at, easy to understand and easy to navigate. The underground maps in Arcanum, in my opinion are none of the above.

As to weapon and armor damage, I still feel that it was a bad choice to use it in the game. While its more 'realistic' I think it takes a degree of fun out of the game when you're favorite weapon suddenly is little more than scrap metal.

Its not fun. While it may seem 'cool' to have to learn "Ok, this axe works on this monster, but I need a mace for this monster" it seems to be getting a touch too much into micromanagement to me. Especially when you're forced to learn by using the weapon and seeing it damaged!

In short, these various flaws make the game not as fun as it could be. The mapping problem could have been fixed easily and I wonder what they were thinking when they used the route they did. The weapons and armor damage, while its realistic, I dont play games for realism, I play to have fun.

In short, these flaws will make Arcanum not as fun as it could have been to me. I'm sure I'll eventually hit the level cap problem myself and grumble also.

 

If you get a pyrotechnic axe(technology) or a mystic axe(magick), I seriously doubt you'll be using anything else for a long, long time in the game.

Both weapons do serious damage, and work great on just about all the monsters in the game. So really, your argument about having to haul around a lot of different weapons for certain monsters has no validity at all.

 

Well...

As for weapon and armor repair goes, master repair repairs items to 100% durability with no % loss to the item unless its destroyed. It also is ALOT better to do your own repairs, as most npc smiths cant repair 100%.

 

Where can you get a pyrotecnic axe if you dont have smithy tech?

 

you

can't

jamie

(although sebastion has a pretty decent charged ax)

the schematic is in the basement of mr. willoboughys house in tarant .. gaurded by 4 lvl 20 mechanical aracnids.. you can then use tech books to get the skill (not much needed (20smith/8explosive) get some fuel, and a feathweight ax (you can make.. or buy from merchants in wheel clan)

peace

jamie

 

In what way is Karas's argument now not valid? Granted, the pyro and mystic axes are powerful weapons, but I believe there could be plenty of situations where you can't use them. I'm just speculating here, but aren't there MSR ratings for these weapons? And at what point in the game can you actually get one? Is it before any weapon-hurting monster encounters?
Besides, whether or not these weapons are readily available and readily usable by the time you have to fight one of these monsters, it would be more fun to not have weapon damaging like this in the game IM(and Karras's)O. I also agree with Karas on the automap thing, although not exactly for the same reasons. I didn't like the shadowy corner syndrome because it made it difficult for me to see if I'd already been somewhere or not. A lot of times with the map I couldn't tell if there was another branching hallway in a certain place or just a corner.
And one more thing, I know this has already been argued a lot in other posts, but I also didn't like the level of control given over party members. The wierd thing is it's almost exactly like Fallout's level, and I didn't have any problems with that. I think it might be because Arcanum gives your followers more power, e.g. with spells and such, that are often misused (or frustratingly never used) by the AI. Like Virgil's Sanctuary spell. I remember one point in particular, when I kept getting my ass kicked in a fight with a bunch of undead, when I tried for fifteen minutes to get Virgil to cast that spell and help me out. And there's simply no way. Why does he even have that spell?

 

a friend wrote this

"Elara's List of Problems with Arcanum:

1. Combat timing system - Gag a maggot. Okay, we've got the weird realtime / turnbased time warp thing going, where your 1 mph Ore Golem can close on you in one round if you go turn based but takes 9 years to get there in real time. Huh?
People are going to take advantage of this anyway they can.

2. Combat damage - Okay, first of all the damage model is the goofiest thing I've ever seen in my entire life. You've got weapons that get damaged by hitting enemies, weapons that have one MSR for one handed use and another for two handed use, weapons that have secondary powers (magical swords and staffs, etc)....all this is nice, but rather hard to keep straight. Some people say, 'Well, weapon X is clearly the weapon to use in any circumstances.' Oh really? Well then why in the fuck did all the others even get put in the game?

3. Magic balance. Dear God. Let's see, I can take a level 12 character and turn him into a killing machine in short order. Stun - Fireball - Wall of Stone.

Magic in this game is so incredibly overpowered it's sick. Let's say you're level 21 by the time you master your first 5th level spell, disintigrate.

Game over. They fail their save, it's all over. I annihalated every soul in Tarant with harms, disintigrates, and fireflashes. Maybe a minor heal from Virgil every now and then.

You try that with pure tech and you'll die fast. Where's the disintigrate of the Tech world? People will say they don't balance exactly....I say they don't balance at all.

4. Tech usage. I don't feel like wandering all over the damned globe looking for the one piece of scrap to build a shitty pistol which won't work the way it's supposed to.

Sure , tech is cool, but it's very difficult to get going.

Just remember Vendigroth. Magick is stronger.

5. AI reactions - Okay, I'm lost. NPC's don't cast spells intelligently. Enemies never even try the slightest attempt at really running away. Summoned allies have the intellect of cheesecake.

6. Level Cap - Why even bother? Don't you know people just disable these thigns as soon as they can figure out how? I wish, I wish, I wish we could have a Daggerfall - style leveling system. "

 

The speed of making levels is the problem, not the level cap. If you do all the side quest avaialable to you you will be riduclulously overpowered for any given point in the main story line. You may not THINK you are, but you are. I've seen people say they went into the Black Hills mines at 20 or so... I went in with ma and magnus and dar at 9 and had no trouble with it - we were 14 when we finished. That was my SECOND game, when I realized I was much higher level than the designers intended me to me for what I was doing.

I would suggest the following changes for fixing this in future games:

1) Less exp for easy setting, not MORE - this is so fucking obvious I can't believe it's in the game like this. First you make the player much more powerful than his opponents then you make him level up twice as fast as normal... it's an exponential cycle. If anything, all difficulty settings should have the same experience. Easy setting rewards people twice in this game, and hard penalizes people twice. Neither one is a practicle alternative. And I despise difficulty settings that nerf the player instead of buffing the enemies. That's just a BAD idea, and I didn't like it in Fallout either.

2) Side quests should offer item rewards with minimal experience - which would entail an overhaul in the way experience is handled in this game... more exp for finishing plotline quests and less for combat maybe. Or possibly they could have implemented a system that dynamically raised or lowered the enemy levels - but they didn't.

Whatever the case, my second time thru I skipped most of the side quests and found I was the "correct" level on the main plotline. The game was mcuh more of a challenge that way.

 

Heh, Voormis, you are a goof... I'm assuming you never even tried tech based on your comments. You prolly just tried a flintlock pistol and siad "tech sucks", right?

Magic is easier... I suspect it appeals to people who don't like too much of a challenge. There are some insanely powerful tech schematics tho... you can easily have a pyrotechnic axe at level 10, which dar hits for 60 or so with. My first game with a half ogre tank (which had 20 strength at the crash site) used a fate point to steal the machined gauntlets from that trainer in Dernholm at level 4 and was hitting for 50 with his bare hands. You tell me what spell your mage had at level 4 that could dish out 150 damage per round, and do it indefinately.

Tech sucks, my ass.