US Attack

I agree to your way of thinking except that the fact for exaple that you are american and you are also aware of my previous posts
you are defending yourself and your beliefs
now what Im I talking about? I don't think any good will justify the wrong. It's like pulling curtains over your eyes.
Hypotheticly if Now there was peace, I would not forget the terrorism noway the terror the terrorist brought to the world is not measureble by any means or standards, But I will not forget what the US has done eighter.
The same way I am against death penalty, By taking another life you won't bring back the ones lost. Revenge retaliation? No these are very impulsive emotions that fade away with time. I will never say it is okay to shoot these people becasue they killed your people
so know you know I also agree to your Hague
proposal. So I do not apreciate people that write "those resposible should be skinned alive or burned at the stake" they just show how primitive they are.

 

Dragoon

Thanks
Yeah, fear and anger can do that to someone at first, but I managed to get a better head on my shoulders. Still a little snippy and feeling sick, but I'm regaining control. Pointless thoughts and blithering about torturing people makes me no better than the monsters that attacked me.

Mr Nicotine

How so? Sorry, not up to date with world events untill now.

 

Jinxed

Yeah, sorry, that was pretty evil of me, it was a first instinct, irrate thought process that I let slip, blowing hot air so-to-speak. I think better of it now.
Still feel that the terrorists need to be punished however.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Acacia22 on 2001-09-12 23:02 ]</font>

 

I understand we are only human after all, any first hand reaction is understandable.
When I saw LIVE as the 2nd plane crashed I was so stunned that I though maybe it was a video game or a movie special on cnn no kidding My first reaction took away all fluids from my mouth.

 

Jinxed,
Yeah, over here in the states they're saying that it was pretty much worse than any disaster movie to date.

 

Ok, went back through the thread and removed my first two posts, they were stupid rantings in an otherwise intelligent thread. They realy served no purpose other than for me to vent, as well they weren't very comforting for others during the time of this crisis. They were also very incriminating, they painted an ugly picture of myself as well as the US and were very much unlike me. Geez, the things that come out of my mouth when I'm pissed.
Once again, anyone who was offended, I apologize.

 

If you are of the opinion that fighting back and defending ourselves is just as evil as those attacking in the first place, I don't think I will be able to change your mind. However, I would like to make some statements that I feel very strongly about.

Yes, I am an American. If you feel this biases my thought to the point that I defend my country to the exclusion of all else, feel free to skip the rest of this message. If, however, you are able to get by such a narrow-minded assumption, I congratulate you, and ask that you just consider some points I bring up. My opinions are just that; mine, not the governments, not the American people as a whole.

First of all, if you are of the opinion that any sort of retaliation, or retribution is wrong, then you have just given all of the power to the terrorists. As long as evil men, or even misguided and desperate ones, are willing to use terror and violence to force others to their will, they have the advantage. We are handicapped by our own morality, and what is contained in the ideals of a civilized society. However, if we don't fight back, if we don't track down these criminals and bring them to a swift and harsh justice, they will win. Their willingness to use violence and weapons of mass destruction gives them infinitely more options than we. I am not like some hotheads, declaring that we should nuke all of the countries that we suspect, or even realisticly KNOW, that are harboring and/or supporting terrorists. However, I DO believe that we should do all in our power to track down the ones responsible; the terrorists, government officials, etc, and bring them to justice. There are things one can do that forfeit ones right to live. Shedding innocent blood is one of them. The U.S. government has told the Taliban in Afghanistan that by harboring Osama Bin Ladin, if he attacked the United States, we would level the Taliban. I believe we should do just that. Track down Bin Ladin, kill him, then give the Taliban a number of days to evacuate, and level their buildings. ALL of them.

My second point is that I come from a religious background. I do not believe that this is the only life we have, that we were nothing before this, and will be nothing afterward. I believe that there is eternal judgement and that man has agency to make his own choices. However, I do not believe that he can choose the consequences of his choices. I believe that God has said that is a man murders another, he shall be put to death, according to the law of the land. You have said you do not beleive in the death penalty. That a man taking another man's life is not justification to put that man to death. I disagree. If you do not, then you have given all the power to those who are evil and enemies of all who oppose them. The wicked always have more options than the righteous, simply because they are willing to use tools we will not use against people we will not attack.

 

hmm, i hope your are just venting here.. cos this line of thought won't really help.. imagine what it does to the other country, at least a whole generation will be wiped out without proper education, basic means of surviving, etc.. more innocent ppl will die.. in the end, we're became just like the enemies..

if we think 'retribution' will justify annihilation of a whole country, that is what started this incident in the first place.. in the eyes of the terrorists, ALL the Americans are involved in their crisis because our government funded their enemies.. we don't wanna think or act like those bastards now do we??

i totally agree however that the responsible party be brought to justice firmly.. just make sure we don't kill more innocents in the process.. i believe whatever action our government take, the effect will be felt throughout the world.. i pray to God that it would be for the good of all mankind..

 

I'll agree with bronco01 here after all retribution is a cycle that never ends,
anyway guys how do the UN reacts to these tragedies, I hope they can do something about this for the sake of everybody..

 

Tanl: I know that from your point of view what you ar esaying comes straight from the heart and you really mean it. But please the whole terrorism thing is directed towards the people to let them know that their goverment can't protect them, so they would want to change it. The goverment as it would want to stay, the only way is to make the country safe safe from terrorism, and to do that they would have to wipe out the suspects or do what they deemand. As I have seen in the past The US is kinda trigger happy. I just don't want more innocent people dieing left and right. Think of the Nato blunders in the past.

 

I don't know what more I can say without making an ass of myself again. We realy can't be positive just yet about what hit us.
Conversations tend to point towards the Middle East and there's been, throughout the years, alot of metaphysical mumbo jumbo about the catastrophes happening in the year 2000 and the 'Beast from the East'. If this is ME slamming us, which some posts in this thread lean towards, the only history about what is going on over there is what I've read in this thread and the little my dear ol' mum told me.
From what I understand, Jews are fighting for their homeland against Arabs who are seeking world domination. The World Domination concept has always been portrayed in fiction as the desire of villains.
Now we have the US who, somewhere back in the sixties, got involved in a religious war that's been going on since the days of the Bible by supplying the Jews a mean of defense against the arabs.
This has raised brows around the world and positions America as playing 'World Cop' which no one wants as everyone has business which they feel strictly is their business. Fair enough, but if America kept their hands to themselves, the Jews subcame to the arabs, and the arabs still strongly held the idea of world domination, then there would still be a problem, assuming that this has anything to do with the Middle East, which it realy may not.
Do I have my history straight? This is what I've picked up from alot of reading over the last few days.
Now I'm one man, what American leaders do, does not reflect my personal ideals and opions and What I think has nothing to do with the way that American leaders think.
My personal, rational opinion, is that these terroist organizations need to be extracted and executed, one for justice, as a way of saying that you can't walk into to someone's house and slaughter thousands of them, then go home to laugh about it over a beer with your buddies and live happily ever after, if such were the case, cruel, devastating acts of violence would be taking place everyday in America, not only by outsiders, but by Americans themselves. Two, we want to make sure that those pulling the strings never, ever again have any way of returning.
I've been hearing alot of folk screaming 'This is war!'. To me 'war' depicts weapons of mass destruction flying back and forth and complete genocide, I don't think this should be war. I think only those directly responsible should be taken out, and at all costs, innocents should be left alone, we are better than enacting the same senseless violence that happened to us on others.

 

Why?

I have watched all the news if the past 3 days and wondered what was the goal behind this attack on the US. Every country in world has condemed the action of whoever the culprit was, what ever message the terosits was tryring to send will never be received. When a crime is comitted against a person people usally ask why what was the motive. In this instance I dont think anyone cares for the reason because nothing could posibly justify the death of so many people.

To the brave Fireman and the police who attempted to save othes and lost their lives. There are no greater examples of heroes than you.

 

There's been plenty of coverage of people demanding retribution, but I haven't seen much about full-scale nuke attacks on countries, or even of conventional attacks that wipe segments of the population. We want those responsible without causing innocents to suffer. Most of the people I've talked to and most I've seen on TV have wanted justice on those responsible, but that's it. No burning of entire nations, no genocide. Come on, people, give us some credit.

Acacia22, your history is, er, pretty close. I don't know about the whole Arab World Domination theory, though. Spreading Islam throughout the world, yes. Just as Christians attempt to spread Christianity.

The US has truly tried to walk a fine line in the Middle East. On one hand, supporting an ally in Israel, which is a democracy (though not perfect), after all, while most of the Arab states standing around them are monarchies or democracies that tend to vote the same guy into office every time practically as kings (Syria)--and on a more cynical note, we support Israel so as not to offend the large Jewish voting bloc in the US. On the other hand, we try to stay on the good side of the Arab nations because of the oil.

Something to think about in regards to the Palestinians. What help have they gotten from their Arab brothers? Rhetoric of the evil of Israel and the US. Terrorist training. Funding for terrorism (or freedom fighting, if that's what you prefer). A few squalid refugee camps on the borders with inadequate basic facilities. No offer of financial support. Treating the refugee Palestinians as third-class non-citizens--which is what they accuse Israel of doing (and which is true, to some extent.) Basically saying, "Sorry for your losses, but it was the hateful Jews that did this, so go take back your country, and get the hell out of ours!" Very simplified version, but accurate.

 

Wookie,
World Dominating Arabs is what I deducted from one of Jinxed earlier posts in this thread, I understand now that such is just a minority and doesn't reflect the people or the goverment themselves, speaking of which, the news has made it a little clearer to me also that the Middle Easterners are just as bothered with terrorists as we are and would love to get them 'out of their hair'.
I realy don't think anyone is going to harbour any terrorists, as well I believe we will find them before something even nastier happens. Looking through others opinions in other forums it seems alot believe that this will lead to a 3rd and final world war, I'm thinking the opposite, I'm thinking it may lead to a bizarre sort of peace.

 

For Acacia22 (re Bin Laden, McVeigh)

McVeigh was a less than stellar example, but I felt he needed to be included so the original post wouldn't come across as me having predetermined Bin Laden (and the mideast in general) as the culprit. Whatever prompted McVeigh predated his time in the military, and is better compared to the current epidemic of American school shootings. He knew how to make explosives prior to military service. Anyone in America can learn how to also, with a minimal of effort. (A problem in itself.) Like I said, his was a poor example to use, so I apologize and withdraw it.

Finding information about Bin Laden takes some digging, as his history in most news sources begins with the first embassy bombings and the original attack on the WTC. Fortunately the BBC still has some information about pre terrorist Osama that can be easily found on the net. I'm sure there must be other news examples but given recent events, most attention is focused on Bin Laden as terrorist, and I didn't want to wait too long to get back to you.

Long story short, Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to join the war between Afghanistan and the U.S.S.R.

The Afghan war was publicly blessed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and largely funded and outfitted by the United States. (This information was also repeated to us when my army unit first began using Stinger Missile launchers, to give an example of their proven combat effectiveness against Soviet aircraft.)

Bin Laden was the founder of the Maktab al-Khidimat, an organization numbering in the thousands, and comprised of international (muslim) membership from such places as Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey.

Many terrorism analysts believe that Bin Laden (and his organization) were one of the groups chosen for security training by the CIA due to their effectiveness. This is hardly a stretch of the imagination, but it is still up in the air (to the best of my knowledge) and unconfirmed with a definite yes or no. They were however definitely trained in the use and upkeep of American military hardware and tactics.

After the war in Afghanistan, the "Arab Afghans" (as Bin Laden's organization came to be called) began focusing their attention on the western world. Specifically the United States and their allies in the middle east.
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Having survived the Reagan era with more than a little surprise that the world wasn't reduced to slag (especially after his televised "joke" about bombing the Russians in 5 minutes. That one still makes me queasy.) I can definitely see where the anger prompting terrorism comes from. But I am still vehemently opposed to it.

The attack of LARGE SCALE civilian targets is a fairly new (historically speaking) phenomenon that seems to have come of age in the recent tribal wars in Africa. Previous acts of terrorism still operated with a military mindset. Primary targets were government buildings, military barracks, and military vessels.

Specifically targeting commercial targets seems more the domain of piracy than terrorism. (another name for guerrilla warfare, something else we had a hand in funding in Central America)

I also don't think (personal opinion) that skyjacking is by default terrorism. Most hijacked air scenarios conclude peacefully. I feel its reprehensible, but not at face value the chosen tool of terrorism.
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As I said before, I am an American, and in no way trying to say we got what we deserved. It doesn't matter what the reasons are, all of this simply needs to stop. But, "this" includes the subtle machinations behind the scenes which seem to be the backbone of our hostile foreign policy.

If we are serious about forming an international effort to stop terrorism once and for all, I am simply asking that we play by the same rules we expect of others.

Every nation that has ever held the distinction of Superpower has also had a history of disregarding treaties they usually had a hand in creating. Because they can. At any given previous time in history, the dominant world power of its day abused its authority, and is subsequently no longer in the same position of influence. It catches up to you eventually. And it may have just caught up to us. (The political equivalent of pathological lying.)

This leaves the question, do we declare war on terrorism and continue on business as usual? Or do we learn from our mistakes and finally break the chain? If we use history as a guidebook, chances are we'll be business as usual. But there's a first time for everything. And I sincerely hope that we do learn; and that it leads to a period of peace as mentioned recently in this thread.

Take care.

 

You understand very little then. Fact of the matter is that Israel is Palestine, at least it was until after WW2. After WW2, that land was given to the Jews for their homeland, even though the Palestinians had been there for hundreds of years.

They don't want world domination, they want their homes back.

The fact that the Unites States was instrumental in the dispossession of these people, and the fact that the United States has been dumping money and weapons in to Israel ever since is why they hate us.

We lost a lot of people Tuesday, in a horrid act of blatent terrorism. However, the Palestinians have been systematically murdered for several months, with weapons the United States has given Israel. That's why they were celebrating.

It's not on the news in the United States, but right now, there are United States designed and created Israeli tanks and helicopters invading the land where the Palestinians are allowed to live.

 

I agree Saint, but the point in Muslim religion really, is that the world should be islamic, that is that, there is no place for anything else and one day, one morining it will be an all muslim morning (since they all pary at sunrise) Now this has been the forve in my mind that has been driving the terrorists leaders to fund and live a terroriust life as for the tools( the ones doing the terrorism) they are just being used as part of the great plan. I don't think this conclict will ever stop not now not ever, The Israeli are keeping most Arab nations in check, Imagine what would happen if there wouldn't be a outpost like that?
Do you really think the arabs are a peaceful nation? No I don't think so, As for the Palestinians yes there are the people that have been suffering for years, Acually the conflict was there before centuries ago it is not the first time the Jews are occupying Jerusalem. The arabs seek to destroy all that is non islamic in the end. That is my opinion. But now is not the time since they can't even depend on themselves.
If this conflict will end another will brew

 

Uhhmm, St P, kinda true in a biased sense. So I'll respond with my admittedly biased view. I'll go ahead and put in a disclaimer: much of the information I'm using comes from a research paper I did in my days in grad school in history, plus what I read in the paper and seen on TV over the years. Which means I'm remembering stuff I wrote about 10 years ago. So if you want to take what I say with a grain of salt, be my guest. I won't be offended. I WILL be offended if you say I'm wrong because that's what your cousin Jimmy-Joe-Bob said 'coz he saw it on Jerry Springer once. Ggrrrr. :wink:

The Jews were not given Palestine. The UN, in its early days, tried to give the Jews a homeland within Palestine, which at the time was a British "protectorate." But it also tried to work things so that the Palestinians were able to keep most of their territory. The compromise, naturally, pleased neither side, so they had a little war over it. The Israeli's won. They did NOT use US-funded weaponry. They used whatever surplus WW2 gear they could grab. Their tank corp was a hodgepodge of US, British, Italian, etc, armor. Any funds they received from the US was from donations from private citizens, not the government.

Yes, Israel is systematically killing Palestinians. However, please remember that the people they target are the leaders of Palestinian terrorist (or freedom fighters, go ahead and choose your side) groups. They go after the bomb makers and the guys that give the suicide bombers their marching orders. Sorry, I have no sympathy for them.

Israel also is criticized for bulldozing Palestinian housing. What is often not mentioned is why. Israel has publicized that they will destroy any terrorist's or suspected terrorist's families housing, and also buildings suspected of housing or aiding terrorists. A breach of due process? Yes, though I'm not sure if Israel has it in their constitution. Anyone know? Open to abuse? Most assuredly, and an all too often occurrence. I don't agree with the policy, but it is one designed to send a message to the population without killing civilians. Because the occupants of the houses are given warning to leave.

Oh, and while the US gives/sells arms to Israel, it also gives/sells them to many of the surrounding Arab nations. In the past, most of them used Soviet arms. Then came the end of the Cold War and the Persian Gulf War. The Arab nations saw American tech outmatch Soviet tech, and began clamouring for our weaponry.

As to who held Palestine first. How far back in history do we look? Didn't the Romans toss the Hebrews out after they rebelled in, er, what, 80 AD or so? Because the Jews original kingdom was in Palestine. Which they settled after leaving Egypt. So you can argue people have been fighting over that patch of ground for over 2500 years.

What it all comes down to is not who started it, but what can be done to stop the violence. Who will be the first to say, "You have slain my brother, but I will extend my hand to you in peace rather than war, so that no more mothers must weep over their lost sons."



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wookie7 on 2001-09-14 00:16 ]</font>

 

Yeah, like I said, I'm not well learned in history, what I'm repeating now is what I've just picked up on over the past few days.
I thought Isreal belonged to the Jews back during biblical times. I'm very uninformed, where did the Jews reside during the hundreds of years that the Arabs had Isreal?

Why? Can't they just simply share the land, or divide the land?

 

Mr Nicotine,
Thanks for the effort of writing that lengthy explanation. I'm piecing things together slowly but surely. =)