US Attack

yeah, noticed. Deleted mine.

 

neios: although I would really want to commnet more I'm sorry but I cannot continue this stupid bickerring since you can't read history books. So please stop posting anything towards me, and Listen to the moderator.

 

I just received news that my moms friend from syria yesterday while at an airport, her 10 year old son, spoke to her in arabic, someone heard and he was almost beaten to deadth he is unconcius in the hospital, the culprits were 2 germans and 2 romanians. now this is what we really don't want happening.
more innocent people haiving to suffer over someone impulse of anger and insanity. What did a 10 year old boy do to them? or what did he have to do with the attacks? beats me.
but to them everything seems they thought they can get back at someone. Pitiful

 

That's pretty horrible Jinxed, it seems everyone around the globe is losing their minds over this. I heard gun shots going off in my neighborhood this morning, have no clue as to who was shooting what.
I want to see the guilty parties brought to justice, but wish no harm on the innocent.
This is indeed a grave situation, I've been on end all morning and throwing up-wasn't able to sleep last night. Hopefuly this all will be resolved quickly.

 

America is grieving. This is hardly the first terrorist attack against us. The rest were handled "diplomatically". We allowed our, ahem, allies to investigate, then begged for the opportunity to bring the perpetrators to justice. Begged for years. Sometimes we were allowed to; sometimes we weren't. I rather doubt we'll beg the international community for permission to hunt down those responsible this time. This is an act of war, and will be dealt with as such. To those of you who have offered your condolences, thank you. To those of you who want us to continue turning the other cheek lest the ensuing unpleasantry eventually affect your countries economically or otherwise, tough.

I must admit it takes a really big heart to hurl insults at a country that has just had 10,000+ of its citizens murdered. Your mamas must be so proud.

~Di, disgusted

 

please, this is an open discussion, no one is hurling insults, but it is also a chance for people to say what is on their mind. Think that every second someone dies in the world and someone is born. I hate to see anybody die. More will die death and destruction the path of the shepard

 

I'm not really sure that anything can mitigate such slaughter, but I do agree that life has to go on. This is from the NY Daily News, and I think it sums up the feeling in NY rather nicely:

"The cowards responsible have destroyed towering symbols of the greatest city in the greatest nation in the world. They have not destroyed that city, that nation or the American spirit. If anything, the city, the nation, the spirit are stronger.

America is a concept. But concepts are defended and upheld within the individual heart. Our hearts may have been broken, but they continue to beat. Most incredibly â€â€￾ something terrorists cannot grasp â€â€￾ they beat with a love for this nation and for one another."

I'm very proud that I live in a place where people still rush to the aid of their fellow humans, and hope that this spirit of brotherhood will abide across the globe. No one should have to suffer like this- thank god we don't have to do it alone.

 

That's pretty horrible Jinxed, it seems everyone around the globe is losing their minds over this. I heard gun shots going off in my neighborhood this morning, have no clue as to who was shooting what.
I want to see the guilty parties brought to justice, but wish no harm on the innocent.
This is indeed a grave situation, I've been on end all morning and throwing up-wasn't able to sleep last night. Hopefuly this all will be resolved quickly.

 

no matter how many people die it is virtually impossible ro kill a concept
What are the terrorists really after? The american concept or the american people?
It's hard to say 'cause till some time ago I though it is more about the concept but this, this is something different. In broad daylight, think of what those people in the planes were through...
or the ones escaping in panic through the windows.. It's like the scenes from Titanic.
but the Titanic was a accident a mistake.
This is a planned executed in cold blood action. The terrorists also attacked from a point where noone thought they would.
What if they aquire a suitcase nuke? and plant it in Disney world? What the hell?
Is this the world that our parents wanted us to live in?

 

Oops sorry for the double post, that was realy bizzare.
Nios,
I agree with the article with exception of the 'greatest' bit, in this world I realy don't think there is a 'greatest', and I think all the boasting only goes to attract more distaste for us.

 

Acacia22 - I'm glad you managed to overcome your emotions your posts are much more 'calm' now and I hope you're too. Massive retaliaiton born by craving for vengence is (was? can't rightly say yet) what frightens me most.

Thanks for info, in this particular matter I'm glad I was wrong and US did criticize. I just wish US acted more firmly. It's not that I blame Israel for taking revenge for their people - I just can't stand the fact that Israel's 'responses' hurt people not responsible for the bombings more often than those who stand behind these acts.

As for that diplomacy issue. I bet the question around which agreement could be achieved was about borders. And I doubt Arafat had a real chance to convincing his people towards concessions. Same refers to Israeli. It's really unfortunate that both nations have powerful extremists in them. Life would be easier if fanatism wouldn't blind these people.

As for your response to slavery question. I did not intend to bash US by mentioning slavery (besides, slavery is too vast a topic to add it here). In the earlier sentence I wrote that "Most important issues were..." and I added slavery because I just did not want anyone to accuse me of stating that slavery was not one of the most important issues. Sorry if you, or any other American, perceived this like somehting directed at you. I don't want to start yet another discussion full of emotions.

I meant they didn't act at once even though they were, more or less, prepared for this inevitable conflict. And Poland survived longer than anyone dared to imagine taking into account what little forces it had and that Stalin stabbed us in the back on 17th September. Thanks for appreciating Polish courage. Just one thing - we had some (though not many) guns and cannons too.

I didn't mean just Rossevelt. IIRC Roosevelt was very sick and tired at that time thus I put major blame on Churchill. Before some British flames me read the rest please. Unfortunately I do realize that all of the world was tired of fighting and hardly anyone would like to start another long lasting conflict. Acknowledge however that it's hard for a person from one of these sold countries not to feel outraged at those facts. And I appreciate Bush stating no more Yalta. Though I'd like to hear a more direct apology and from all the countries involved.

I'm glad to hear reason - I'd just like politicians to behave like that.

I hope I'm not offending anyone, particularly Dragoon and Jinxed. It's enlightening for me to hear the views of those different from mine, particularly from people outside the US.

Don't worry I don't feel offended. Actually I like your posts - you show knowledge, reason and you don't blindly support wrong ideas. Sometimes it seems that you misread something but as I am a foreigner it might be that I miswrite it as well.

You can be sure of this.

Another person showing reason. I'm really glad.


Di - I don't know whether your post refers to me but it showed me what I should've stated in the very beginning of my first post here. My dearest condolences to all of Americans. I can't even try to imagine how you feel witnessing this atrocity as members of the most powerful country on this planet. Trust me, an outsider, however in this - all of civilized world felt this blow in some degree.

To end this I'll present an idea of mine of how it should be handled in my opinion. First I'd like the world's solidarity not to end on empty claims or just aid in US material rebuilding. I'd like all the countries to truly join and fight terrorism as one entity. I'd also like it to be done with respect for the law whenever possible. If (I'd like to say when) people responsible are caught I'd like them to be jugded in Hague. I don't like Hague's policy of 'no death penalty' but please understand. Judging these murderers in US would show that only US punishes them whereas judging them in Hague would be a symbol of the whole world united in fighting terrorism.

 

Strange days...

First, hats off to everyone. This had the potential to degrade into a rather hideous flame war that would have surprisingly little to do with the game Arcanum. So, thanks for maintaining a solid degree of civility. (Must say something about the people who play Arcanum.)

And second, I think we should again look at this from a realistic perspective instead of one that views this as an interesting historical footnote.

Leaders the world over have a habit of talking in sound bites. Memorable snippets they hope people will remember them for. That's nothing new. I used one just last night.

I am still personally saddened by the world's desire (especially the U.S.) to make this an issue of threatened democracy rather than a threat to human decency.

Innocent people were attacked and killed. Those people had little if anything to do with U.S. affairs, even less when you consider the number of international businesses that kept offices in the twin towers. Even less when you also recognize the building as having been a tourist attraction. On a clear day, it had a hell of a view. (The Pentagon is still tragic, but it was at least a military target. The plane used as the weapon was not, however.)

If we are actually at war? These events would at least be comprehendable, albeit repugnant. But we would already know who our enemy is, and there wouldn't need to be an investigation.

We wouldn't be debating what constitutes a terrorist. (a supplier, a trainer, a shelter, or just the person who planned the act)

And if the end definition for terrorist becomes a combination of all of those, then yes. The U.S. will certainly have to revise its policy as well. We are suppliers and trainers. We trained McVeigh and bin Laden, after all.

Whether one nation perceives another as arrogant or not is irrelevant. I might seem the most pompous ass to you. That's your opinion. But you will probably disagree with me then, or inform me that you find my arrogance distasteful. I strongly doubt anyone on this board would feel it appropriate to blow up my girlfriend because of things I said. Or to toss my cat in a microwave because I supported an unpopular view, even one that might be wrong. I'd expect that the quarrel would be with me.

 

I came home from school yesterday, turned on the tv, somehow ended up on cnn. Was I shocked or what? Sat for a couple of hours just watching cnn's reports.

Still, im not suprised this all happened. It was just a question of time.

Also, just before I went to bed, cnn reported something from taliban, explosions and stuff in Kabbal. Anyone know what that was about?

Just a hunch, but I think something big is going down, something different. All is not what meets the eye.


I offer my full condolances to all who died yesterday and their families. I wish nothing like this would ever happen again, but it will...as history has shown, either by war, natural disasters, plague and much more. I just hope that time will be many years in the future.

 

Well-said, Dragoon. I'm glad to see that you're reading my posts in the spirit that I tried to write them, even though I tend to come across pretty strong sometimes when I can't quite find the appropriate words.

On the diplomacy issue between Israel and Arafat, I believe the main bone of contention was Palestinian right to return. The Palestinians justifiably want the right to live in their former homeland, but Israeli's fear that this would destroy their country internally, as, apparently, Palestinians would then outnumber the Israelis. A very touchy issue, and one that will not be easily solved.

Oh, heh, oops. :roll: Didn't mean to imply that the Poles fought stupidly without any modern arms. From what I recall, and I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I believe the Poles had one of the better and most modern air forces of the time. But they got caught by surprise and on the ground by the Germans. Plus, the speed of the German attack surprised everyone. Mainly, I was trying to show the Poles courage. I once saw a picture of an actual calvary charge by the Poles against tanks. They were slaughtered, but they charged anyway. Stupid? In hindsight and by our views, perhaps. But the men in that picture probably had no choice and where trying in the best way they knew how to defend their homes.

And, yes, they were betrayed by the ever opportunistic Stalin. If you want to talk about a mass-murdering S.O.B....but that's a different story.

I agree, Jinxed, that the world should band together to combat terrorism. I'm hoping that the terrorists that did this miscalculated, and that by murdering the defenseless (which, by the way, is against the teachings of Islam, from what I understand), will rally the world together to hunt all terrorists down and bring them to justice, that all nations will stop the training, supplying, and harboring of terrorists. That would be a true victory from this madness.

Though I am an exception to the typical Texan in that I do not endorse the death penalty. The punishment, in my mind, is over too quickly. Let the bastards stew in a dark, dank hole for the rest of their lives, never to see the light of day again.

 

wow finally someone to support what I said earlier, I least I see that someone has been looking into areas I have been

 

Someone just e-mailed this to me. Makes for an interesting read.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American
communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane.
Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman
on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their
draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Thank you, Mr. Sinclair. I appreciate your sentiments.

 

wookie: yes the poles had great planes, but that is also and issue I would like to talk about with dragoon. See we had a leader at that time. Pilsudzki, what do you think? Dragoon, he left us in shambles the "losie" were very little, or were they just surprised?
Anyway, America should tebd it's wounds now show it's people it cares. it's ironic Bush investing in the missle defence systems while those bastards crashed planes with people on board. This attack no doubt has another massage: "No matter how expensive your defences, we poor 3rd world coutry terrist will get you" that is what would scare me the most if I were american.
Remember the "Red Scare"? Neigbors telling on each other that "I think he's a commie"
Innocent people were thrown in jail.
My message to all Americans who read this
Please, try to not panic and do anything rash.

 

wookie: Yes, that is interesting, but these are just words, I don't say they ar untrue, no, far from it. But this is just the way propaganda works, Nice set of words that align in everyones mind the way the author had planned. I mean would anyone think of the US badly if they read that?
There are many political assholes here in Poland that have their views, It's almost every highschool has it's views on our history. It sucks. But I don't dissagre completly on what I read. But these are famous things think of the ones that only goverments know.. Secret things, Kept away from the eyes of the public. Every country has a lot of dirt. Poland aswell

 

Jinxed, I see your concern, and hope I can address some of it. Yes, many people are giving knee-jerk reactions that we should nuke anyone who looks at us crosswise. But from what I've seen in a mid-sized town in Texas, most people are being smart about it. Hundreds of people lining up to give blood. Churches packed with people praying for the victims and their families. Shock and sadness. Some anger, yes. But, mainly, we continue to go about our daily lives. Preparing to rebuild, and to go on. And with a faith in our government to find and punish those who did this to us. Most I've talked to are like me. We can wait a long time for those responsible to be punished.

Much of the rhetoric on tv is just that--hot air. Politicians speaking for the cameras and their re-election campaigns. I'm not saying don't be concerned. Just don't be over-concerned.

 

Yes, Jinxed, they are just words. But to those of us Americans who feel that most of the world unduly hates and criticizes us, it's a voice to let us know that some do appreciate the good we've done. Yes, we've done some unpleasant things. I've never denied it, even though many of my fellow citizens try to turn a blind eye to it. And the government has a hard time covering it up around here due to a free press. Try as the gov't might hide things, the press usually ferretts things out. Just ask Nixon. But we've done a helluva lot of good things that the rest of the world conveniently forgets. That is Mr. Sinclair's message to us Americans and to the rest of the world. And one that I'm profoundly grateful.