Arcanum vs Baldur's Gate 2 (including ToB)?

Which sentence is it? That's one hell of a contradiction. So while there is more adaptiveness of the game to how you play, to the point of making it more varied and free for choices of the player, and moreso than BG/BG2 - it doesn't deserve to be called that? Okay, you see those apples over there? Don't call them fruit.

JRPG = Japanese RPG, usually console games. Over-hyped pieces of eye-candy, more often than not. FF is a joke compared to most real RPG games, and about the only one I've played that I could like would be Star Ocean and Star Ocean 2. Parasite Eve wasn't too bad, but the sequel was a complete steaming pile.

Tactics was an add-on to the Fallout series (but a completely separate game), whose entire purpose was to act like a concept whore for Interplay using the Fallout name. QA was the pits on that game, and it's been dropped into "Finished State" already after a couple of patches that don't even fix half the problems. Compared to other games in it's genre, it's not worth getting at full price, and then only if you don't care about bugs that make those from Stone Prophet look tame. Unlike BG2, the fans would likly be unable to make any fixes on their own due to the bugs in FOT to be possibly inherent to the engine and well...15 months, new game, new engine...not gonna happen on the scope they were shooting for.

For in terms of atmosphere and the game setting, Fallout is a bit better than Fallout 2, but both are a good play. In Fallout 2, everyone tried to cram in easter eggs to the point of critical mass, and then Feargus even admitted he was clueless about the state of it's operational integrity. A clue, that was really obvious and should have gotten across due to the mass of complaints on the Fo2 IPLY forums at that time and even remarks of his employees. I still remember the broiling that Hendee got when he had to confirm to people that after the "Final Patch", nothing more was forthcoming - even on some of the bugs that were noted to be still there and severe. Fallout 2 was near the beginning of Interplay's downfall, and it's what made people first start sitting up and taking notice that something was rotten in the state of Irvine. Which has further continued downhill in progressive means until where Interplay is today.

_________________
"To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 02:11 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 02:30 ]</font>

 

Firstlease, do stop telling people they're calling apples something else. It's getting to be your constant 'argument' and I'm beginning to really hate it.

It isn't.

You didn't take 'degree of intensification' which I mentioned into account. Let me explain this. When I'm saying that I agree that Arcanum is taking more upon trais.......... it places Arcanum somewhere lower than 25-30% on open-endedness advancement line. Quite different when you're saying that Arcanum is more open-ended.......... This suggests Arcanum is strongly open-ended somewhere pretty much above 50% on the open-endedness line. And I say that in my opinion it isn't justified as the only way of finishing the game is to follow the main plot (keep in mind that I only wrote about open-endedness as referred to plot in those two sentences).

Okay, I admit that I probably shoud've just read simple statements w/o interpreting them this much on lingual level pondering upon the usage of words. Guess it's hard to put aside all that you're taught. :smile:


Thanks for explaining that bloody "J" in JRPG. Recently I borrowed FFVIII and so far it's the only JRPG I played. I'm very early into the game so I don't know much about the plot, however, as for the technical side, to me it sometimes requires to much speed in jumping over the menus than I'd like to see in an RPG game.


I also posted something for you in the "saint stop ur ****** whining" topic.

 

Then let's take a look at something called "comparing".

In relative to one, another can be consiered to be more or less than something. It's what's called "comparing".

Back to the apples ( :wink: ), we have one that's green, and another that's a shade of pinkish. Which would be "more red"? Or are we not allowed to compare that as such anymore? It's back to the old Sesame Street "Which one doesn't belong?" through a means of comparing. Let's take another example like a full jug of milk and an apple. A jug of milk is "more heavy" because it exhibits the traits of weight moreso than the apple. Yet it's not really heavy, but in a means of comparing, it certainly does apply.

So why are you insisting we can't consider the jug of milk to be "more heavy" because it doesn't weigh a few tons?

As for the thing with Prov, we both have a thing for debates and we've been friends for a good time. Sometimes the same argument raises about an itch to scratch, so to speak.

_________________
"To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 23:32 ]</font>

 

The open ended play in Arcanum is directly linked to what your characters can do. There are different options for races, specialists, and so on. You can't totally remove how your character develops from the plot since that development is linked.

This isn't BG, where all the races and all the classes get the same speeches, and has to do the same things to get from Area A to Area B, which nearly always just involves killing something.

 

You know very well that these examples don't reflect correctly what I meant, however they serve you well as means of "proving" that I'm producing irrational statements.

Anyway I admitted that I shouldn't have brought this up as it was I who instead or accepting what people said looked for deeper meanings, interpreting posts, taking things like 'degree of intensification' into account. To make it more clear - my fault. Shoot me, but my future occupation requires such approach and sometimes one just forgets to put his habits aside.

Don't you think we're getting into a lengthy discussiion over something not really worth our time? After all my interpretaion is how I perceived something, I don't expect everyone to agree with it. Bottom line is: If there'll be no apples :smile: or other malicious comments in your reply I'll be glad not to answer it, thus finishing this ranting of ours.

 

Applesauce.

:razz:

_________________
"To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-08 02:06 ]</font>

 

stats

I agree with you somewhat but still have a few problems.

First of all, I agree that there is a flaw in the alignment system of BG. I think the original idea of the AD&D alignment system was a roleplaying tool to make players use their characters personality in the game intead of their own. When converted to a computer game the alignment system doesnt work too well

As for stat increases, I still say Arcanum is no better than BG. It just doesn't make sense for someones physical beauty to increase without reason. It also doesn't make sense for someones intelligence to increase form a mentally retarded state to a genius without a damn good reason. Realistically, a stat cannot change without something beyond just leveling up. If a dumb fighter kills a lot of bad guys and levels up, does an intelligence increase really make sense? NO. It would make sense if he had gained that int completing a quest involving some sort of research or studying. The point is that while some stat increases do make Arcanum more realistic than BG, but some make it more unrealistic.

 

Comparing BG2 with Arcanum

I find myself a strong fan of Arcanum. I was one who did not enjoy Fall Out in the least.

I am not a young cyberwizard, but I have been a computer gaming fan for close to thirty years. Not an afficianado by any means, just a big fan. I'm old enough to remember when the up and coming career choice was gonna be, get this, "keypunch operator"!

I'm a female boomer with a husband, grown children, a dog, yard, mortgage, and steady work as a semi-skilled "caring professional".

My life is ambiguous, and while I've always enjoyed the role-playing genre, I find Arcanum to be the best over all role-playing experience. I really like the ambiguity that is inherent in the complexity of Arcanum's platform and interface.

Oh, I'd love to incorporate the wonderful artwork from BG2, and there are times when I miss the option of directing the actions of others, but since life (actual and other) seems to be ambiguous, I guess I'll find a different way of coping when people don't do exactly what I want.

That's why Lonnie Riel has a backup plan for healing others in her party!

 

BG2 vs Arcanum

I shouldn't be surprised to see people flaming each other because opinions on something as subjective as personal likes/dislikes is being discussed. It strikes me as rather useless, though.

I've played nearly all major CRPG's released in the past 6-8 years; Fallout 1 & 2, IWD, PS:T, BG1/TOSC and BG2/ToB... also several of the FF series, Anachronox, Dues Ex, you name it. I love games, period. I've played all of these games at least twice all the way through, and in many cases up to a half-dozen times over the years.

I've also played Arcanum twice all the way through... yes, bugs and all. My personal opinion is that BG2/ToB was six times the game Arcanum is. Arcanum was a magnificent premise with an execution that, in my opinion, didn't do justice to the concept. Arcanum is a fine game; it's just not a great game, in my opinion. Bugs aside, there were, to my way of thinking, severe balance problems, deliberate game-design decisions that lessened my enjoyment, and the centerpiece of the game, character creation, fell far short when compared to Fallout's SPECIAL system which goes down in history as my all-time favorite for individuality, flexibility, replayability and just plain fun.

I'm not going to get into the nitty-gritty of detail on why I thought one game made the grade and one game fell a bit short, because opinions are like belly buttons and nobody's is particularly pretty. If I were the Game-God I'd have made tweaks and changes to every game I've ever played to make it exactly what *I* want and to heck with the unwashed masses. :smile:

That said, the game design of the BG-type games, with AD&D based rulesets and near-complete NPC control, and the Fallout-type games, with utter freedom of setting and rules along with AI controlled "followers", is truly and apples-and-oranges scenario. It's more appropriate, in my opinion, to compare Arcanum to the Fallout series; there again, it falls short in my opinion. Of course Fallout2 is right up there with BG2, tied for my favorite games of all times so it would have taken one heckofa game to give either of them a run for their money on my all-time fave list. At one point I thought Arcanum might be the game to do it, but that was long, long ago.

Still, it's a good game. Not great, but good. In my opinion, of course.

~Di

 

I've play them both. My first place ever is still FALLOUT 1,2 (perks!!!). Second still remain Torment. Until Arcanum BG2 was my third favoritebut now things are changed (but only the third place).
BG2 is a good game but I love side quests and huge character development. So I go for Arcanum. You can do what ever you want with your character. The major minus was that I've
reached level 50 in the middle of the game. From then on my character was stuck. There are to many encounters and they give you to much experience.
But I still go for Arcanum!!!

 

Acck! This is a helluva lot to read and must admit that I've only read one page of it, but thought I'd post my 2 cents so it could go unread also. =P

I noticed alot of mention of BG2 which I cannot comment on as I avoided it like the plague after seeing the atrocity that was BG1! One thing I should mention, I think the whole real time combat crap in RPGs is the sloppiest form of fighting to ever hit video games during my twenty one years of playing them, and because of this one oversight, Arcanum slaps the poo out of BG as you have the ability to jump into turn based mode when things get hairy.
Yes, yes, BG has the handy little space bar thing going for it, however it doesn't do much good as it's extrememly difficult to decipher on the screen who's taken their turn and who's going next.
Side quests in BG seem very shallow and mostly involve slaying something with no optional ways of getting around it, as well there doesn't seem to be many quests.
BG is also far more linear, you're following along a road for god's sake! Cities in BG are prettier to look at but realy takes you out of the game when you come upon a house that you can't enter because it is just simply a painting, this confines and restricts you to only exploring key buildings in towns.
As I write this I am currently working on both BG and Arcanum, but find most of my time spent with Arcanum. I've had BG forever and didn't bother with it after several combat sequences and just pulled it out again hoping to get a little further and find the value in it that I've found in Arcanum, but BG is disapointing me with constant restrictions and being forced to choose one given path, you even have to leave cities in a proper way to continue on in certain directions.
I was realy annoyed in the Freindly Arms Inn to find that pickpocketing sleeping patrons didn't even register and if you pickpocketed folks while they were awake, there were only two events that could happen, either you were successful or you were caught.
In the inns, everyone looks the same and usualy has one bit of dialogue for the most part nudging you to continue on with the main quest. Also the interface for BG was god awful. Although my distaste for Baldur's I will continue through with the game, once Arcanum is complete, in hopes that it will prove to have more substance than first four hours of the game has displayed.
The only thing better about BG is that it does allow you more personal control over your NPC's, where in Arcanum I have found myself crowded and stuck in corners of castles and barking simple commands doesn't register enough with the NPCs to move and let me free, not to mention that the NPCs in Arcanum do some pretty stupid things during battle.
Pool of Radience is coming out around the end of this month, it's going to offer turn based combat which will make for a good game, but it can still be destroyed by the liniarity BG had if they try and make the game too similar. If youre gonna have a building in a game, allow the player to enter it in some way and don't have just a portion of it on the screen, freedom and realism is far more important than pretty images when it comes to an RPG!

 

BG vs BG2

The last few posts have had a bit to say about BG1 and its flaws. So, for those who have played BG1 and haven’t played BG2 I thought I'd throw in a few comparisons.

I was a late comer to BG1 since I dint play it until earlier this year after BG2 had already been out a while. I had tried getting into BG1 about 6 months earlier but couldn’t quite get into the game. The second time through I absolutely fell in love with it. The main draw for me was the excellent story that was told throughout the game. The graphics lacked a bit but I kept reminding myself that it was a 3 year old game and was spoiled by newer games like Deus Ex and Black & White. I know a lot of people have criticized it as being too linear, which is a fair criticism, but it didn’t bother me. The combat system was not without its flaws, but it was user friendly and offered a strategic element with good use of the pause feature. I could have done without the experience point cap but was near the end of the game when I reached it so it didn’t bother me too much. Another thing I liked about BG was that it was a long game even without varying from the main plot. Some have reported it has having over 100 hours of gameplay which I can believe after all the time I spend travelling around the Sword Coast. The day I finally beat it I ran out and picked up BG2. I was very impressed with the improvements in the sequel that I will list now.

1) Graphics - With up to date graphics and a higher resolution from the original, BG2 is one of the best looking games I've seen with a top down interface. In one of my earlier posts I said that Arcanum's graphics were probably as good but now that I've spent more time with Arcanum I have to say that BG2 was a better looking game. The artists for BG2 did a great job capturing the atmosphere of the many different areas in the game.

2) Music - As I've said before, BG2 has one of the best soundtracks that I've ever heard. It was not only great to listen too but added tremendously to the atmosphere of the game.

3) Combat improvements - The combat system is almost identical to BG1 but there have been a few improvements made. One nice thing about the pause system in both games was that you could set automatic pause situations to make you aware of events such as weapons breaking of someone being critically injured. A few more automatic pauses have been added to BG2, the best being when a trap is spotted. I used to get frustrated in BG1 when the thief would identify a trap then step on it before I could pause the game myself to tell him to stop and disarm it. A few others have been added but I can’t remember what they are right now.

4) Story - the story continues from BG1 but adds a new twist. I don’t want to say too much for those who might want to or are playing BG2 so all I'll say is that it is one of the best stories I've ever seen in a game (or book, or movie for that matter).

5) Journal - the journal in BG1 is similar to Arcanums but not near as friendly. It listed everything on the same page and when a quest was completed it just added another note saying it had been finished without removing the original note. This made it VERY difficult to look up info form earlier in the game. The journal in BG2 has been improved a great deal. There are now separate pages for accepted quests, completed quests, story updates, and user entered notes. All these pages are also organized by chapter so looking up old info is super easy.

6) New Classes - BG2 offers more classes than BG1 as well as sub class options. Clerics can now be priests of specific gods, Thieves can be assassins or bounty hunters, etc. Each class offers the regular characteristics or at least 2 different sub class options.

7) Exp. cap - There is still an Experience point cap in BG2 but it's a lot higher and with TOB you can reach as high as 40th level. For those familiar with AD&D you know that a 40th level character is damn powerful.

Side quests - there are a lot more side quests in BG2 as well as "stronghold quests" based on what type of character you play. Also, your party members each have quests associated with them giving them more character development than most games. There is also a lot of dialog between party members which adds to character development including the possibility of a love interest. I know many have said the love interests in games is a bit cliche but I felt it was don’t in a way that added to the personality of party members which is lacking in too many games these days including BG1. It also added some humor into the game making that much more fun.

I could say more but I'll leave it at that for now. I think those that found fault with BG1 should at least take a look at BG2 as it is a great improvement to the original.

Lastly I want to agree with what someone said earlier about the bugs in the combat system of Arcanum. I have made some criticism to Arcanums combat system but for some reason left out the one thing that can most likely be fixed with a patch. Doorways seem to be a big problem with the Arcanum AI. Several times when encountering enemies in a new room, one of my party members will stand in the doorway making it impossible for anyone else to join the battle. Even worse, sometimes they will block the door so it wont open and I can get them to move Fortunately this usually happens in rooms with more than one entrance so I can move around to the other door and continue but that can be really aggravating. Hopefully there will be a patch to fix this problem but I can’t help but think that it wouldn’t exist if it worked more like BG.

 

I agree with fenderaxe about his arguments regarding bg vs bg2. Arcanum VS TOB, on the other hand is even so far, both games has something that the other doesn't have. If only Arcanum runs faster then it will be Arcanum 10-1. =)

I think Arcanum's Graphics was great, they even have more detailed graphics of equipment than TOB and more npc's i believe. As well as a very very very very very very
large gameworld which is what attracted me the most. Still, the slowness was its major drawback so its 5-5 for now, maybe 10-0 with Arcanum 2 , hopefully.

 

Arcanum vs Baldurs Gate II (and TOB)

I'm nearly through Arcanum for the first time, so I'll chip in my .02, saying what I thought of each game.


Graphics: No comparison. Even the original BG has better graphics than Arcanum. In Arcanum, the only really cool special effect that I can think of off the top of my head is the animation for teleportation. In BGII, where fireballs streak towards their targets, it's possible to fire off a spell trigger that shoots 15 magic missiles at a foe, and the world I'm playing on isn't all right angles. Some of that beautiful world is non-functional (that is to say that some of the chests are just window dressing), but then again, you can't look in every barrel in Arcanum either. BGII and TOB have far superior graphics, bar none.

Sound: BGII has much better ambient noises (stop a moment in a city and listen to the crying of the merchants, the play of children, people going about their lives, and then go down into the dankness of the Underdark where the echoes signify distant danger). On the other hand, Arcanum does have voice acting that's on par with BGII, and exceeds it in that they actually go through the entire conversation rather than just the first line. But what really breaks this for me is the music. Arcanum’s music is good, but not particularly memorable. But if there were a CD with the BGII music on it, I'd buy it. Jaheira's theme, Viconia's theme, the TOB main theme and the TOB chapter 10 music in particular are great. Once again, I'll take BGII.

NPC's (part I): There are no Rasheman Rangers with severe head damage that take advice from Miniature Giant Space Hamsters in Arcanum. Some may rejoice the lack of a character like Minsc (and his mighty ally, Boo), but the game feels empty without him or someone like him. Lines like “Butt-kicking for Goodness!� and “Evil, meet my sword. SWORD, MEET EVIL!� really made my day. Also, Raven is no Jaheira and Z’an Al’uren is no Viconia.
Advantage: BGII
Side note: Virgil reminds me of Khalid, which is a bad thing. I'm quite glad that Khalid died off screen, because I never liked him anyhow, and besides, now that he's out of the way, I can comfort his widow >

NPC’s (part II): In BGII, I have as much control over my NPC’s as I do myself. In Arcanum, I’m left wondering whether my followers are sane. Virgil in particular (“Put the boulder DOWN!�). Perhaps it’s more realistic, but it’s annoying by times. Still, for the most part they’re somewhat smarter than the BGII NPC’s. I’d trust Raven enough to leave her unmonitored- I can’t say the same for Imoen. In BGII my party fights together like an experienced team, everyone working together in sync. In Arcanum, it’s more like a bunch of sword swinging maniacs thrown together and a little unsure of their teammates. Arcanum is more realistic perhaps, but I miss my professional mercenaries.
Advantage: Tie.

Main Plotline: Both are big huge Child of Destiny type quests. Not much to recommend one over the other. I’ve actually found the Arcanum plot to be shorter. TOB took me five days to beat, SOA two weeks, and it looks like I’ll be able to beat Arcanum either today or tomorrow (three or four days). (The above numbers are for my first time through each game, doing a minimum of side quests) The Arcanum plot appears more flexible and open-ended, but BGII and TOB felt like I was reading a book (a good thing in my opinion).
Advantage: Tie.

Side quests: From what I’ve seen, Arcanum blows just about everything out of the water, especially when you take into account the world editor.

Interface: Arcanum needs a complex interface, being a very complex game. Having said that, certain aspects of the interface make playing like pulling teeth. Combat comes to mind. BGII has a beautiful interface, well planned and well laid out. I’ll take BGII’s interface, thankyouverymuch.

Characters: I’m a big fan of the Ranger-Cleric. But BGII’s class system looks pretty pathetic compared to Arcanum’s points system.

Overall, I’ll take BGII over Arcanum. It’s not nearly so close to true role-playing I’ll admit, being more like an interactive novel. But then, that’s what I prefer.

 

bump

I have to agree with essentially everything GTG said. Mainly I just wanted to bump this post up so the debate could continue.

 

I have to disagree for the most part. Spell effects, while nice, are really just fluff.

On the other hand, in Arcanum, if you aim for the chest, head, or legs, and do significant damage, the enemy dies in a gory fashion indicating which part you hit.

For example, if you do an aimed head shot, and connect, there's a very good chance you'll decapitate the victim, and there's an animation for that. Same with the other parts.

Also, these "Called Shots" also have an effect on combat as well, so it's not just eye candy. If you aim for the arms/torso, you have a greater chance for disarming and/or damaging the armor at that location, for example.

In addition to that, when you Prowl, there's an animation for that specifically. It's not some goofy sprite fade trick.

Also, Arcanum has a hell of a lot more armor type graphics. There's the wool jacket, leather, chainmail, nice suit, platemail, mechined platemail, dread armor, and so on. In BG2, you basically just had platemail, leather, robes, and chainmail.

Arcanum has much more depth of graphics when it comes to character animations.


_________________


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saint_Proverbius on 2001-09-16 08:24 ]</font>

 

I

-Edit: Bad spelling :smile: -
From what I've seen of Arcanum so far, it's a nice game, already very addictive :smile:, but BG2 got Arcanum beat on graphics, character art and gameplay, IMHO of course. Not to mention the cool lines some of the characters have. Come to mind: 'Butkicking! For Goodness!' 'Actually some violent thoughts did just come to mind. They're really funny. Well perhaps you wouldn't find them fun.' :grin: But those lines are prolly only fun when you like BG2....

Or Lilarcor: 'My brother is a +12 hackmaster.' (btw.Lilarcor is a talking sword)

But I haven't finished Arcanum yet, so I might change my opinion, though it isn't likely.

_________________
On tap: Dwarven Ale.
'Have ya hugged ya toilewt taday laddy?'

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Faragon on 2001-09-16 09:50 ]</font>

 

While we

I never noticed the different death animations. Maybe it's because I was just burning/slashing everything. Do you need arrows or guns to be able to hit specific body parts?

You're right about that there are only so many armor types in BGII. There are the regular cloths, the robes, the leather armor, the chain mail, and the plate mail. Each of which is in different colors, depending on the type of armor. As apposed to Arcanum, which has underwear, robes, jackets, fancy jackets, leather armor, chain mail, plate mail, and barbarian-dread-armor-type gear (if there are more, please tell me). Each of which is available in different colors, depending on the type of armor. So you get three (three!) entirely new type of clothing. Yee-haw. Of course, in BGII, you get cloaks and belts, which are absent in Arcanum.


While we’re talking about armor and weapons, once again, here’s an area BGII did better. In BGII, the item descriptions provide a history of the weapon, which is very cool. A generic item in BGII has a better description than an Arcanum artifact. BGII items tell you ahead of time that you can or can not use them. It’s frustrating to buy a weapon in Arcanum and discover that I have insufficient strength to use it properly. This greatly annoys me.

Another quibble I have is that there is no autosave, and if there is a quicksave then I haven’t found it yet. Drives me nuts. Every time I do start to get into the game, I have to return to reality every few minutes to save the game. It’s hard to get into the game that way.






"For someone who supposedly has her soul tainted by the evil of a dead god, you remind me considerably of a chipmunk with a sugar high and a death wish."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GTG on 2001-09-16 12:56 ]</font>

 

Nope, you can do Called shots with any weapon.

I only listed the types of armor that weren't just color changed ones too.

I agree about the item descriptions thing though, it seems only the tech schematics have good item descriptions.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saint_Proverbius on 2001-09-16 18:17 ]</font>

 

a note on graphics

You're partially right and partially wrong on this one. Yes, there are less armor types in BG2 but of those types there are many different magic artifacts that are displayed differently. Basic chainmail looks a certain way but some are different colors and some glow with magic. There is even one magic chainmail that constantly changes colors. Weapons behave the same way. Also, each character has his own color scheme so if 2 characters are of the same race, class, and gender, and are wearing identical items, there are some differences in clothing color as well as skin and hair color.