Who is Replaying Arcanum? Post your thoughts...

yes S8 you get less EXP playing on hard, personally i can't get why people would play on any easier, and then complain about the cap. oh well.


and i'm sure the towels was all some kind of secret plan of them, making you all confused.
_________________


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: monkeypunch on 2001-09-06 03:59 ]</font>

 

But how else do you measure the form of progression of your character in a CRPG?

Jellybeans?

 

story arch, and the personal creation of acharacter.

a crpg should have a story that will change depending on how you play it, you progress through going forth, pretty easy.

 

Of course I repeated what I said, you're too dense to get it.

CPs are merely a model for the personal growth of the character. See, as people do things in real life, we gain knowledge and abilities. The more we do things, the better we get. Experience Points and Character Points are merely a model to facilitate what all humans do naturally, we learn and we grow.

Of course, it's not the perfect model. There is no way to make a perfect computer model of how people realistically gain and grow as people. Of course lobbing grenades has nothing to do with haggle. However, after you've lobbed those grenades, you do get stuff to sell, and you do sell it, don't you?

What's the point of me "imagining" I'm getting better when I'm not getting better? You're basically suggesting we should lie to ourselves to enjoy the game, here. We've advanced as far as we can go, so let's make believe we're actually improving! Hell, at best, that's just mental masturbation.

As for that "body playing game" load of horseshit, I think I've said numerous times that it has more to do with the character's brain than it does the body of the character. Why can't Joey learn?

Funny, that you bring up Diablo 2. Most people think Diablo 2 is just an item hunt rather than an RPG. Well, considering you can no longer advance passed level 50.. What's Arcanum turn in to? An item hunt, and not a very good one considering the items in the game aren't nearly as good as Diablo 2's.
What's that? You need a higher magic aptitude to use that nice Arcane Plate you just found? Oh, that's too bad. You'll never get a higher aptitude, you're capped.

 

And how do you judge how your character will do? Or is it you the player that is instead playing the game, in the guise of the character based upon your abilities? Where's your intelligence of 1 to enjoy the humourous dialog options, and how is such determined by the CRPG?

What you fail to realise is you're talking P&P instead of CRPG.

Hint: There's a reason why Guybrush Threepwood is in what's called an "Adventure game".

_________________
"To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 04:08 ]</font>

 

imo its the other way around

you must be happy, you built a body, it doesn't differ from starting with it aside from that you spent killing bunnies to get better in reading. A RPG is not about building a role, its about playing one, what says that the role needs to get better as you advance? its all a poor to riches model.

get a sim, its more of what you want.

so? if you are supposed to be able to get everything why have any rules in the first place?

 

you should have read what i wrote, if you didn't, then don't reply.

i never talked about leaving a body after, i just said that you do not need for the body of the character to evolve, saying that you make one, and then it stays that way. Not that you don't have one. that is that arcanum is as much a RPG after the level cap as before.

Arcanum would be an RPG if you started at level 50, and never gained a single CP in the whole game.

you need though rules for the character, to contain it, and those are setup, just like a game in wich you move forth in the stat field as you work yourself forth.

no, i'm simply talking about playing a role, with set rules by the game.

you know, perhaps you should visit that link you so gladly showed off in the whine thread, as it seems that you haven't read what i worte.

to explain it one more time, i'll use monkey island, as you brought it up.

if you was given the option to create a character in monkey island, how ever you wanted(more free then in arcanum, arcanum got that problem, too large restrictions in the creation). after the character was created and set, you have your basic rule book, you can't stretch longer then the rules by the digital body of rules you know use.

that is, not stronger, not smarter, not more wise.

so you start the game, and in the game you will get a world that responds to your charcter, and the way you play it. in this monkey world as you progress the world bends and twists around you, creating a story arch that perhaps in detail, no other gamer will ever play.

what differs from arcanum? well your body wont change.

this is what arcanum is like after the cap, and imo it is as much a RPG after, as before.

 

Funny how it's you that seems to be failing the most simple of concepts. I'm glad you have gotten that difference between stats and no stats.

Have a cookie.

Now perhaps you should go back and read my original post. To implement and then take away the system after a while is totally unreasonable. If you are going to use a measurement of a character's advancement, which is one of the facets of a CRPG, then it shouldn't be in such a deadfall point like a level cap. I know well enough what makes up a CRPG and RPG, and I've outlined it a few times at NMA. What YOU don't seem to reaslise is there's a difference convention in the gaming world. Games where you explore and solve stuff without too much of your actual character being developed like King's Quest or Hero Quest, etc. thos are Adventure games. They too set the limits, but firmly, in ways that could emulate a GM. Same thing as others.

Now, if you wish to be insulting, now I too shall be.

Get your head out of your ass and stop mixing up the arguments. What I was hoping you might grow a clue on is that there can be both ways, and P&P statless RPG is called "Adventure" in the CG world. RPG with stats in them are commonly referred to as CRPG. The difference is the IMPLEMENTATION, which I had HOPED you would have a CLUE about. Apparently, you're not too good at chess either. I'm sorry I assumed you to have a thought process capable of thinking ahead and comparing and reasoning things out. My apologies.

Namely:

If you are going to use a stat system as a measure of character growth, then it must be maintained because it's become an integral part of the character and game progression. Where I was hoping you'd understand something is, why bother have it in there if it's going to be topped off at an easily-achievable point? What is the point if you're going to have it go to a point and then stop? Why should you have it there at all? It's used because it's also what helps define the character in the game aside from the player's chosen style. To cut off at a certain point in essence can be thought of as cutting off the character's progression - which in this case, it is!

It's a completely different thing from static and unevolving characters. Stop trying to mesh the two, it doesn't and never has worked that way.

Now, go ahead and accuse me of not reading, perhaps I might be sympathetic. However, I will maintain that you are not thinking.

 

And the level cap facilitates this how? It doesn't. In fact, it plainly is a hinderance to your statement because once you hit that cap, it ceases to be a character. It's merely an avatar.

See, characters tend to get better with use. It's one of the most fundamental aspects of an RPG, CRPG or PnP. Since Arcanum arbitrarily stops this advancement, it loses the RPG quality with no apparent reason other than poor design.

It's almost like saying that since I can can design my own mech in MechWarrior 4, it's an RPG. After all, progress on that mech stops at a certain point also, when you enter the mission. Maybe you can just imagine those PPCs getting better through the course of a mission! Hooray!

 

Saint, we're not trying to tell you the experience balance is good as it is. We're trying to tell you that to stop playing when you reach level 50 is just plain silly, and it doesn't stop being an RPG just because you hit the cap.

As for Rosh:

Alright, first of all, THANK YOU for holding off the insults until someone as malicious as Monkeypunch came along, flinging terrible insults at your poor, innocent self.
Secondly, who died and gave you control of what the exact definition of CRPG is? Mine happens to differ a little. I'd say that an adventure game is a linear story in which puzzles have to be completed in the right order, while a CRPG allows you to have a real influence on the way the story unfolds. In my definition, stats have nothing to do with it. Want to call me "wrong" on this? Get a clue. I've read approximately a zillion different editorials on what the exact definition of a CRPG is, and all of them were different. What makes you think you're the final authority on the subject?

Of course, that doesn't change your point on the level cap, and I have to agree with you there... it's kinda silly to have character stat advancement if you're going to cut it off halfway.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Calis on 2001-09-06 10:49 ]</font>

 

Yep

Well I must agree with Saint P. on this one, I've been to Tarant, Blackroot & Ashbury, and are now on level 39, So about 2 more villages and i'm also at level 50. (And I haven't even completed all the quests.)

Greetings,
StarWolf

 

Calis, there are wide and varied Adventure games. Some are linear, not all are, however. In fact, I've seen some that have the classifications of Adventure but have more character choices than all the bloody Final Fantasy games COMBINED! I've seen some text-based adventure games that can literally whup the hell out of most console-based "CRPG" games. CG Adventure has much more than linear crap, particularly when it's one of the numerous good text-based ones that have been around. Adventure and CRPG both have linear and non-linear, some can be simplistic and complex. The differing and defining line between the two is statistical representation, and how it's classified in the CG world.

I don't agree with this, but it's pretty much become the facts of life - it's how the conventions have been set. Kind of like how Final Fantasy can be considered "RPG" at all. Kind of like how anything with a stat system can be argued (erroniously) to be a CRPG. But unfortunately, it's how it's become to be known as. Statless = Adventure, Stats = CRPG. If I had my wishes, it would be changed to the ideal but it would be silly to wish that, right? To argue about what has been set forth would be like bitching at a brick wall. Silly, no? It's much like the "hacker" argument and how different meanings have been indelibly put upon the term over the years.

Now, here's an excerpt from one of my editorials I've written a while back and have had reposted a few times. Please note, that no mention of stats is to be made in it save only in a manner to define the character's (not player's) abilities. And oddly enough, it has relevence to well-written Adventure games, but in the sense that the character's abilities are held static.

--------------

An RPG is a story, simply put.

You know those stories Gary made in the Greyhawk series?

Those were based off of campaigns of his in the early AD&D days.

But an RPG is more than that, when you place a free-thinking individual into the story, much less a game as well. Here's the most important aspects of an RPG, and why they are done the way they are. HOWEVER, this is not in order, but more along a list of what makes up an RPG/ideal CRPG. NPCs here are referring to non-party characters.

1. The story.
2. The character.
3. The setting (including NPCs)
4. Interaction between the character and the story.
5. Interaction between the character and other possible player characters.
6. Interaction between the NPCs and the story.
7. Interaction between the NPCs and the character.
8. Interaction between the NPCs and other NPCs.
9. Interaction of the setting and the story.
10. Interaction between the player and the setting.
11. Interaction between the NPCs and the setting.
12. Variety.

That's FAR from everything that makes up a good RPG. Let me further these points so it's easily understandable.

1: A story is not an excuse for the action, combat, or general repetitive combat. It should be first and foremost at the player's mind, and never set to the back burner.
2: The character NEVER relies on the reflexes and/or abilities of the player. It's the character the player is playing, thus you use the abilities of the character. True, as a player you might get used to the game and be better at playing it, yet as a player you still have to rely on the stats of the character.
3: Post-apocalyptic? Fantasy? Modern? What's the setting and theme?
4: What is the protagonist's (main character's) purpose in the story? They are there to just go through endless quests, or are they there to serve a mission of great importance? In a good RPG, what the player does is reflected back in the story - hence, nonlinearity. The character indeed does have an impact upon the story, but no good RPG would be without another great detail - how does the story affect the character?
5: Are they a group of bland characters, or do they each have a personality of their own? If each character is played by a person, then it's possible, however doubtful it is to find those good at RPing a character. If they are 'played' by the computer, then do they convey a good sense of personality? A good example would be Baldur's Gate 2, or Planescape: Torment, and including Fallout as well.
6: This only points out what purpose the NPCs have on the story. Are they there to tell you the sword is behind the waterfall over and over, or will they actually match the setting and act in it? A good RPG will have the latter.
7: Is the player character idolized or shunned? It depends on his actions, and the NPC reactions to his actions. This is the dynamic part of an RPG that is indeed hard to accomplish in a CRPG.
8: How do the NPCs 'mesh' into an environment or a 'community'? Are they independent little robots, or are they apparently free-thinking individuals of their own? Do events in the story have them interact with one another, and bring the player in to interact with that aspect of an RPG?
9: This is a very big point. And where a lot of RPG games fail. It seems simple, yet so many fail. You have to 'capture' the feeling of a game through the setting to make the story believable and enjoyable; to give the RPG depth.
10: What does the character do to change the setting? This ties hand in hand with number 7, and creates an environment for the character to explore and mold into how they play.
11: What do the events that the NPCs do that tie into the setting? This ties into the story and everything else.

12: No two games played in a particular CRPG should be the same. Each time should be a near or totally unique experience. Nonlinearity is the epitome of this trait of RPG games.

________________
"To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task."
- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 12:27 ]</font>

 

Rosh,

I retract my statement of "who made you an expert on crpgs?". Any place I could read the full editorial? It looks a whole lot better thought-out than most I've read. (seen the RPGPlanet one? They had that 3DActionPlanet guy write it... *shudder*)

 

the point is that i never wrote that you didn't need stats/rules stating your character.

never

i only said that you don't need them to improve with the help of EXP

in a PNP offcourse they can get informal, but this is not the case offcourse with cRPG's.

All i am saying is that its still a RPG even if you never hit a singel level, but still have a uniqe character(uniqe rules stating your character)and a world that changes depending on the role you play.

now, as you didn't feel like reading what i wrote before, and as i have no urge to repeat myself yet again, i ends this here.

_________________


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: monkeypunch on 2001-09-06 12:57 ]</font>

 

The original article was on the WinterWolf/WhiteWolf BBS (up in Alaska at the time), but besides from that, I copied it once for PCGR.com (likely lost in their board archives due to switching scripts - I posted it there for discussion). Plus, I have posted it in various other places in pieces due to some having the attention span around the life expectancy of a mayfly. I might have to dig through the old drives I have or check some of my ammo cases with my archive disks.

But basically, I'll outline it here.

It had something to do with the declining qualiy of CRPG games. Agreed, some in the early stages (M&M) were a bit bareboned compared to Arcanum, but they were dungeon romps intended for a bit of long-term relaxation. Any salted GM/Player could tell you that after whacking the 300th orc or (insert critter here), the same-old dungeon-romp gets old and repetitive. The article was used to spark the creativity of GMs in order to make a more fully-fleshed out world for their players to explore, even when using a pre-existing one like the Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms setting.

I think it was at a time I was playing as a player and was quickly becoming tired of how there seemed to be less people populated into the world of the campaigns than could be found inside any town in Dragon Warrior. Barkeep for rumors, Blacksmith for gear, Tinkerer for misc equipment, Mayor for quests, Damsel in Distress running from the cave to give to directions to get to there. It all became old, fast.

At the same time, I noticed more text-based CRPG games and Adventure games (labeled such since they didn't resemble any coined RPG game or resemble such, and graphical became known as such after the Williams' initial series were released) uploaded to the BBS. I've played numberous ones, and have crafted a few of my own that have fallen prey to the atrophies of time and magnetic storage failure, in that my disks kind of fell apart over the years without me backing them up.

I saw some remarkable pieces of work, interestingly enough, some had the essence of what was considered an RPG mixed in what was considered an Adventure game. For the most part, it was completely brilliant. Second, it wasn't too popular. Adventure games have their niche because people like a simple or slightly complex puzzle game in which to get through. RPG, because people like seeing their character grow from a green weakling into a rippling powerhouse ready to save the world.

I then thought, if I can't spark this genre of complex non-stat RPG (which could also be called open-ended Adventure), then I might as well spark back up a local interest to develop more complex and thought-out CRPGs with a focus more towards the game as a whole instead of the stat system of the character.

And ever since, I've had good friends in the gaming industry when it comes to CRPGs, almost widespread. Dr. Cat I count as a personal friend, and I've been tinkering a bit with his latest project. Shapiro and I have exchanged theorums that the spark of the CRPG doesn't exist singly in the mind of the developer, but mostly in the player as well. That's why I cherish Fallout, PS:T (definite case of developing the character), and even so, Baldur's Gate 2. It's also why I've been a bit critical towards BIS, is because their work has been the inspiration for those of my old BBS that have kept in touch. Troika does the same as well, in fact, moreso.

- Eli Havelock

 

Monkeypunch, do you have this addiction to look the victim or something?

Did I say that you NEEDED stats to define a character? No. Only that in a CRPG that it is a common method used to define the character's abilities without the presence of a GM.

Go ahead and continue pointing out the obvious if you wish. My point (that Calis and Section8 saw), was that it was silly to use one method and then drop it halfway. It would be just as ridiculous to go through half the game before you'd gain experience and levels, and such. Think of the situation in reverse and how illogical it sounds.

THERE, IS THE POINT CLEAR NOW?

Now, I think I've led the horse to the water enough times now, I will not care if it doesn't bother to drink.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Roshambo Warrior on 2001-09-06 13:49 ]</font>

 

edit level

Well, does the savegame editor featured at Terra Arcanum allow you to edit your level so that you never reach 50, without corrupting the file? If so those who feel the cap is reached too early could keep their character perpetually in the 40's.

 

Hmmmm, like gaining a few levels, then tweaking it back, then working so it can build up a bit more? Not a bad idea, but if the cap is removed at some point in the future by Troika it might go a bit wonky or something with savegames.

Might be an idea to clone a savegame and then try this out to see if it works, but then I don't think it would take into account the higher level experience scale that will unboubtedly be used and is likely already in place and it just...'locked'.

 

I agree with the role-playing as oppossed to stats playing stance, although to consider any CRPG a role-playing experience akin to PnP is inaccurate - when you are playig a game, to whom are you playing a role? Yourself?

Anyhow, I finished it for the 2nd time last night - both times with evil mage characters. I am currently playing with a good mage and plan on doing every last queat I can find as well as exploring everywhere.

I have played several techies, but get frustrated at about level 20 because they tend to be so crap.

I have found the uber-character is a dark-elf pure mage with black necromancy and conveyance maxed out. Add other spells to hit your limit of 100% magic and watch the bad guys drop.

Use your high willpower to become a haggle master in Tarrant, get the Ring of Influence, master Persuassion next. Then spend your points on pumping Intelligence till it hits 20. After that its all yours. But when you are 5 hitting bludgeoners with fireballs, you'll see why it rocks...

Kind of wish I had played with a techie all the way through first... that way knowing ho powerful a mage is wouldn't annoy me. And Teleportation is just too cool...