Military Tribunals

All the political stuff

I would just like to complement everyone on the fact that they seem to be (for the most part) discussing this civilly. Anyone ever been to the Rage Against the Machine message boards? They go crazy over there. Anyway, I can't understand why the rest of America likes Bush. Everyone says he's charismatic, but I can't figure out what's so charismatic about poor grammar skills. He's an oilman, and almost all of his cabinet members are from big business in one way or another -- Tommy Thompson, Sec. of Health and Human Services, was a friggin' TOBACCO MAN! Gah :smile:It annoys me that we can be so blind, which seems to lead to everyone else mocking us. The rest of the world thinks Bush is a just a dumb, jingoistic puppet for the Religious Right, the GOP, and Big Business. And as for the original topic, military tribunals, I think it's all part of the patriotism-through-suspension-of-civil-rights thing. And, if I wasn't so damned cynical, I'd wonder how 3000 dead, tragic as it may be, could justify the deaths of the 3 or 4 million -- yes, MILLION -- Afghans that will starve because the UN can't get aid to them due to (you guessed it!) our rain of bombs, which can be mighty invonvient when you need to cross a bridge to get food to a starving mountain town, but WHOOPS! it's out. (If you're interested in the validity of the statistic, which is understandable, you can check out a site called znet.org, or look in the "news" section of the Rage Against the Machine website. Incidentally, znet.org is a great site for any fellow psycho lefties out there.)

 

So busted doing it again.

That's because it's Rage Against the Machine. What did you expect?

Communist bastard! If anything, I'm a psycho fascist. I like the idea of communism in general, but human nature means it will never work. (Let's not start a fasctist vs communist, left vs right discussion, at least in this thread. It would go on forever).

 

As a response to Sheriff Fatman:

What actions have you performed to earn your citizenship? I was under the impression it is conferred by birth rather than merit.

I know i am being an optimist here, but i hope that people that live in a country believe in that country, and have pride in where they live. Citizenship is conferred by birth, but i believe this is done in other countries as well.

As a rule, most Americans are not trying to destroy their nation and slaughter their countrymen. I know that not everyone, or even a majority of Afghans or Arabs, are trying to do this, but there are more terrorists from out of the country than in it.

If you live in America for a while, like i have, then you will see the fairness and greatness of the country. Though it is not perfect, no place is. You don't risk dying from war, hunger, or disease here as much as in other places. Our court system, though it has flaws, is still a fairly just system.

To be a good citizen, i occasionly give service to the community, (infrequently, but still sometimes). I also pay attention to the news and current events, learn about our leaders and elected officials, and take stands on my beliefs. And when i am old enough i will vote.

I have to go to class, this may be continued later.

 

Well, I believe that people have pride in their own country too, but can't really see how that should give them better rights and/or privileges.

I would guess so too. Since you recognise that the vast majority of non-US citizens are innocent of crime, do you also recognise the need to tell which ones are actually guilty of something BEFORE you suspend their rights?

If you're basing your theory of rights on probability, and working the numbers to determine who to award rights to and who not, you should recognise that in the vast majority of cases where you randomly pick someone foriegn to accuse of a crime, you'll be attacking an innocent.

If you live in the world a bit longer, like I have, you'll realise that pointing at people you have never met, and labelling them without having seen any evidence is neither fair nor great.

You'll also learn that all actions, especially those undertaken in the eye of the international media, have consequences. Being American does not prevent consequences - it merely insulates you from them under a nice thick layer of media.

To be a good citizen, I am good to other citizens, and also to visitors to our country. I also try to treat people with respect in general and try not to give the impression over the internet that UK citizens somehow view our country as better than the rest of the world or deserving of some kind of special privileges.

I have voted 3 times in General Elections. Once I even backed the winner. I didn't win any money, though, so I might try putting my money in a race with more than two horses in it in future.

The girl I marry on Monday is American. She's wonderful, and so are many other US citizens I have met there during my visits. Some were not nice people, but that just goes to show, you pretty much get the same old selection whichever box of chocolates you buy.

Why's there no Forrest Gump smiley, Jinxed?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sheriff Fatman on 2001-12-13 12:31 ]</font>

 

well, you can't have them all.(the smilies even broke today) I don't know why, but everytime you mention Lysa, I get all worried about my situation. I know I have to do something, and time is not on my side, but to quote Mick Jagger, to make myself feel better:
"tiiiiime is on my side, oh yes it is"

 

Let me guess ... me talking about Lysa ... your situation ... time not on your side - DAMN! You're not late for your own wedding are you?

Jeez, I may spend a freakish amount of time at this place, but even I don't think I'll do that (just in case, try not to post anything too interesting Sunday night :winknudge: )

Seriously though, Jinxed, didn't you tell me you're 19 years old? You don't have a situation. Even if you're a virgin who recognises the presence of girls by a hot feeling in your face, there is no problem.

Be a nice guy, concentrate on being genuinely happy with who you are, where you are and (in cases like mine) what you are. After that, meeting someone to share it with is just a bonus (okay, a BIG bonus).

Remember Sod's Law. As soon as you get happy enough to think "I don't really need a girlfriend to be happy" one will walk around the corner and say "Bah!"

 

Sod must have been a real loser to say that. Either that or he was kidding himself. One of the points of life is to be happy, and quite frankly, I believe that to be happy you need companionship with someone else to be truly happy.

So how Sod's Law is ever going to come true is beyond me.

 

no, I had my first girl over 2 years ago. I was her first guy too. But who cares? That is not the point sheriff. The point is that I really like this girl, and I somewhat know she like me too, but even so, I lack the courage this time.

_________________
Iyaan-na Kanji Nigecha dame da
I'm gonna dance on your grave

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jinxed on 2001-12-13 14:51 ]</font>

 

I can see where you're coming from, but some psychologists call that kind of need a dependency.

I reckon partners enrich life and can turn happiness to joy, but I'd hate to think that being between partners is sysnonymous with being unhappy.

Sorry, Jinxed, I got that quite, quite wrong, didn't I? All I can say now that I actually understand what you were referring to is "Go for it." I doubt you'd be able to make such an arse of yourself that it would close the door forever if it doesn't work out perfectly this attempt. You have to make a lot of arse to do that (I should know, I've tried hard enough).

Also, I can sympathise. How the hell did the gender considered to be dominant end up in a position where you have to go cap-in-hand to someone and risk major reject/humiliation to get a shot at a relationship? Exactly what kind of IDIOTS were our male ancestors?

 

Yeah. I got rejected last year by another girl, that really got to me. Because she was special, I sensed it. Although I didn't really get rejected, more like her situation is what dediced that decision, I felt the blow, and I still feel it. There is another thing. The present girl is very decent, she's smart nice and pretty too. If she would find out about my hack 'n slash past. well I'm just scared of her reaction. That's that. But I don't mind trying. Trying is my middle name. If there just was a save/load feature in life...

 

All this mushy talk got me wondering, BLOODY HELL! What is it with us and this forum? I mean us Jar,Milo,Kane,Sheriff? We are here virtually every day. Speaking alot about everything like we are each others very good friends. Cause we are. I have been here some time, and people come and go. I just hope that none of you bastards leaves.

 

Hey, I've got nowhere else to go :smile:. Nah, this is the first forum that I've been a regular on, and actually developed a good relationship with people with, so I won't be buggering off anytime soon.

I totally agree with you about having a save/load feature in real life. I would be a very different person if that was possible. Then again, does this just make us ultra-geeks or what?

 

For the sake of all that's holy, somebody change the topic. God, I'm so depressed...oooh, a beer!
All better now. :smile:
Y'know, Jinxed, it's real easy to tell someone to just "go for it", but that's what you have to do. Even the worst rejection is better than spending the rest of your life wondering "what if?".
And I had a pretty wicked past, too. But no woman has ever held it (or much else :sad: ) against me. If she's the person you describe, she'll look at you in your present state.
Of course, if she's anything like most women I've known, whenever you have an argument she'll bring up the past in a heartbeat. :grin:
I am an ultra-geek.
And a dirty bastard. Hey, that's not a bad sig...
Nice ass, Jinxed. I think you should keep that sig Milo made for you.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Feldon Kane on 2001-12-13 17:07 ]</font>

 

Yep, Feldon's right, u know what, Jinxed,I envy u man, me?? its been long now and were still just friends, I hope I have ur guts. so don't despair, u still much fared better than most people... :smile:

 

Sheriff Fatman said:
"I would guess so too. Since you recognise that the vast majority of non-US citizens are innocent of crime, do you also recognise the need to tell which ones are actually guilty of something BEFORE you suspend their rights?"


In the American crime system, everyone is innocent before proven guilty, and only in desperate times are infringements of the law taken. There was a panic, and some rights were taken away, but they will return, and many of the people held have been released.

I may be wrong, but i think that illegal arrests could or would happen in the UK or any other country that was threatened like the USA was.

Sheriff Fatman said:
"To be a good citizen, I am good to other citizens, and also to visitors to our country. I also try to treat people with respect in general and try not to give the impression over the internet that UK citizens somehow view our country as better than the rest of the world or deserving of some kind of special privileges."


Just like you pay taxes for roads and schools, you pay taxes for government programs, pro bono lawyers, and also the right to live freely in the country you pay taxes to. You get rights by paying for them, being a good citizen, and not being a criminal.

These are only special privledges because some countries don't give any rights to their people at all. Americans fall under American laws, customs, and get American rights.

The same is true in the UK, Austrailia, or anywhere else. If you don't live in the country, you don't get the same rights, privledges, and benefits, nor should you, since you do not pay for them or work for them.

If you came off the boat tommorow, should you get a tax rebate on taxes you never paid?

The principle is similar with rights and laws.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clothos_Vermillion on 2001-12-14 04:49 ]</font>

 

I agree with your sentiments Clothos_Vermillion. If you don't pay the piper, you don't get...well, whatever the piper is supposed to give you.

People who haven't done shit for whichever country you live in turning up in a boat and demanding stuff be given to them is just wrong. We don't owe them anything, they took it upon themselves to take the risks. If they are disappointed, tough shit. We don't have to give them anything if we don't want to.

I realise I sound like a cold-hearted bastard. So what?

 

As it happens, our system of rights, as governed by law owes much to the writings of a 17th century philospher named John Locke.

One of the fundamental notions of that philosophy is the existence of inalienable human rights. Here, inalienable is used to indicate that the rights are seperable from the person. Clearly, this for this to be true, the rights are not conferred by society.

Our societies, not being in complete agreement with Locke's philosophy, clearly do infringe upon human rights, but I would question the attitude that we have no intrinsic rights without paying taxes.

Also, in a UK court, you would be tried according to UK law with the same rights and privileges as anyone else.

From my understanding (which may well be wrong, since I spend more time posting here than watching the news), some elements of your government are debating whether to relax one specific part of the judicial process (burden of proof) for the military trials.

I thought the justification for this was to do with the nature of the evidence, and that presenting it would endanger the itelligence operatives who had gathered it.

Surely this means that the relaxing of the law in this instance is all to do with the nature of the evidence and nothing to do with the citizenship of the accused?

Wouldn't it follow that, in a similar situation, this relaxation is equally possible when trying a US citizen?

Anyway, this will be my last post to this thread. I think we've strayed quite far enough from Etalis Crawford's post, and I wouldn't imagine there are many people eager for our fruitless butting of heads to continue.

You're entitled to your opinion as much as anyone, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that your opinion puts you in the majority.

 

i do agree with jarinor about boat people turning up on our shores and expecting to be given places to live and the dole (welfare) just because they are here and they deserve it for that reason.

example, it would be like me turning up in america and saying to the INS well i'm here and i deserve this, this and this.
which was what the detainies were rioting about recently because we wouldn't give them automatic citizenship

i'm sorry but if you don't have any unique job skills or able to be financially independent why should we give you citizenship if your going to be a burden to taxpayers and taking away resources to our own citizens who need financial help from the government

_________________
people are idiots!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mrnobodie on 2001-12-14 09:06 ]</font>

 

No, actually it would be like if you were either driven from your country or you had to leave it to save your life (let`s face it: you don`t hop into a leaking bathtub filled with 400 people trying to cross wast bodies of water unless your life already is in danger!), and then come to America and be refused entry. People around you are dead or dying; starved, dehydrated, exhausted and sick! Imagine how it must be for you when you don`t get any help or acceptance in America: The land where all your dreams were to come true, a land you`ve risked your life travelling to!

Imagine...

- Zen

 

but why should america or any country be under any obligation to accept responsibility for them, instead of helping the individuals lets help the countries