staying in character

I would have posted this on the other roleplaying thread, but I didn't think of it soon enough.

Muro said something that kind of shamed me into wanting to try harder to stay in character instead of metagaming like a mofo. I don't agree that I'm weak willed, but still... he had a point.

So, I made a new thief character inspired by Parker, the eccentric cat burglar from my favorite cable TV action/adventure series Leverage. She may be mildly autistic, so she says all sorts of odd, amusing things. But she's also supposed to be one of the best thieves in the world, so she would work well in the world of Arcanum.

The only problem? I recruited too many followers instead of keeping my eyes on the prize. I should be a pretty good all-around thief with some points in Explosives and a Shocking Staff (Parker frequently uses a stun gun on bad guys). Instead, I found myself in Caladon with too many items left on my wish list and no points in Disarm Traps (I wanted to finally do that Master Quest). I can get Sebastian to make stuff for me, but I still need at least 10 CP to invest in skills like Prowl that I would only take to be in character.

And then one of my saved games corrupted, forcing me to start over on some things. Which left me wondering if I should go back to an earlier point in the game and focus more on my thief skills.

Instead of making up my mind about what to do about Parker, I started over with a new guy based on another Leverage character: retrieval specialist/ex-assassin Eliot Spenser.

Maybe Muro is right about me...

I've been having fun focusing on combat skills (Eliot is a ridiculously good martial artist who likes knives and tries to avoid using guns) and finding quests that would make sense for Eliot to do is pretty easy. The only problem? When I got to Shrouded Hills and had the wise woman identify something for me, I noticed that her inventory was full of good stuff that would have helped me deal with Lukan and his buddies. The things that caught my eye were an Arcane Ring, a chakram and a decent magic robe. I've never been crass enough to kill the wise woman for her loot. But man... I was tempted. The only problem? Eliot would never do that. So it forced me to behave myself. Why couldn't I play a guy who wasn't so obsessed with protecting women and children? Dang it.

I took some Temporal spells because Eliot is unrealistically fast. And now the temptation to take other spells is something I fight constantly. Agility of Fire would make sense... but Fire Flash wouldn't. Strength of Earth might be in character (he's stronger than he looks), but Stone Throw definitely isn't.

Roleplaying sucks.

Thank goodness that Eliot used a katana once, or I would have been stuck with my initial plan to rely mostly on a fine steel dagger. I found a couple of nice magical swords at P. Schuyler and Sons and it was a relief that I could justify my version of Eliot using one of them as his new primary weapon.

But still... Even though it's been fun killing zombies with more of a pure fighter than I usually play, I find myself wondering what I'm getting out of sticking with my self-imposed limitations. Just for example, it's going to suck when I finally get around to going to the BMC because I don't have a good way to deal with Ore Golems and other rock creatures. Is the extra challenge more rewarding? Or was it just a good way to blow off steam after dealing with some crappy stuff in real life last week? Will I still be excited about Eliot when I play some more?

Sometimes, it seems like the only reason to not metagame as much as humanly possible is that there aren't enough Character Points to let you do everything with one character. This whole "being a better person" thing is tough to stick with when you know all the cool things you can do in the game.

I mean... It's not like I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons with a group of friends. It's just me by myself realizing that there is still stuff in the game I haven't tried yet and continuing to play long after I won the game a few times. If I metagame, it's not like I'm ruining anybody else's fun. What do I get out of staying in character other than making things I've done a million times slightly less boring?

 

The post that Muro made that you're talking about is this:

In a way I agree with him and in a way I don't.

It's silly to roleplay the game when you have certain knowledge - I mean seriously, does anyone track down a certain stolen painting by following the clue trail after the first time, or do we just walk straight to where it is?

On the other hand, roleplaying a character (like you're describing here) is the only way I personally can get enjoyment from the game.

Any of us who have finished the game could give someone several builds for magic users, melee fighters, technologists, or anything in between that can bulldoze the game.

Dealing with the conundrum you describe with the gypsy woman is exactly what I find interesting - that point where you think, "This would be the smart thing to do gamewise, but this character just wouldn't take that option."

 

<rises his hand>

I might know Keghan and Persephone is at 57 Mulligan Bone, but my characters don't. Why would they go there without having any clue?

You may be ruining you own fun though, if playing a role is your cup of tea.

It all depends on what one likes.

Me, when playing Arcanum, before actually starting to play the game I like to create a coherent character with his morals, opinions, mind-set, dreams and fears. Get the feel of him, imagine his looks, posture, voice and laugh. Perhaps even draw him to make him more tangible and graspable for me. Then when he is finally created, I set him loose on the world and see what happens, partly leading and partly just observing his actions, knowing that not doing something would not be honest with the character. In fact, sometimes I make few-days-long brakes just to think about what would my character really do/say in a particular situation.

The result is that I play a single character for long months, but his personality, thoughts and imagined adventures accompany me when I ride the tram in the morning or before I fall asleep, persistent like an impression of a recently read book or watched movie, even though the game itself has been known to me for years. The experience from the game starts exceeding that which happens exclusively when you're playing the game. It's like if you would be in fact writing a book and/or directing a movie in your very own head, if that makes any sense. Even after the game is long finished, the character remains in your head, still developing and entertaining you. It is all quite absorbing and satisfying.

Not something I would want to lose with saying "No no no, you see, this is how it should be done. Seriously, I know, I'm the player. I have superior knowledge and insight on this". I can see how this is preferable for some but for me it's just not worth it.

TL;DR section
Thanks to roleplaying, the in-game world seems more real and thanks to that one can experience what Arcanum as a tangible world (as opposed to Arcanum as a computer program) has to offer.

 

I do some leg work, but I don't read the dark elf's note because I accidentally discovered a metagame thing you can do if you don't look at it to see the address.

You can still deliver the note to those half-orc guys and get paid for it after you retrieve the painting. I usually don't do that, but if I'm feeling desperate for experience I'll break down and cheat.

I did that with Parker because it seemed in character. I know, I know...

I know what you mean, though. I'll find myself about three offerings into the ancient gods quest before I realize that I never talked to Aldous T. Buxington about Mazzerin's Mystery. I do all sorts of things my character shouldn't know about just because it's too much hassle to get the clues first or whatever.

I can dig what you're saying. I used to hang out online with other Arcanum junkies who always exploited things like repeatedly robbing Ristezze, or some way you can get a Fate Point out of Arbalah, or going into that portal by Liam Cameron's workshop and fighting void lizards until they gained a bunch of levels. Those are handy tricks if you want to make parts of the game way too easy. But still...

Would every character spend weeks stealing from Ristezze? Wouldn't most people get the heck out of Shrouded Hills as soon as possible? And if you're roleplaying a good character, wouldn't you just retrieve Arbalah's artifact and give it to him without manipulating him into giving you another reward?

It's one thing to mess around with stuff only hardcore power gamers would even think to try. It's another thing to exploit every single glitch and weird thing you discovered every time even if you're playing, say, a pacifist who was raised by monks.

 

Not sure whether trolling or trolled.

 

Pardon? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I wasn't trying to troll anybody (or ask for a hint in the wrong forum or anything like that). I was just citing some examples of metagaming to try to make a point.

I'm sorry if I misspoke somehow.

 

I metagame my brains out in Arcanum. It's such an awesomely replayable game, sometimes I don't do anything except play my own meta game, like "Collect all the cursed items" or "Explore all the ruins."

Sometimes I'll meta-roleplay, and give my characters some in-character reason to be so uncannily savvy, some instinct of the Living One perhaps.

In the end, though, you're right, Muro. True RP is more fun, and I just lack the willpower.

 

This thread makes me want to replay Arcanum right now!

The decisions of the player is what makes the experience a role-playing game. Otherwise, it's just a strategy game.

 

I get what you're saying, I just feel like it's a matter of guiding a character through a maze. I can't bring myself to pretend I don't know the route. I realize it's metagaming, but I personally get value out of RPing the character as you've described, not feigning ignorance and pretending to play the game - that's just going through the motions to me. Different strokes I guess.

Hawkthorne, I agree about using the exploits constantly. I've seen forums and walkthroughs for virtually every RP game that consists of pretty much nothing but this. I don't see how anyone can possibly enjoy breaking game balance that way (of course, maybe they don't see how I could enjoy scrounging in garbage cans for old shoes to sell and raise cash for a couple of healing salves).

 

RunAwayScientist,

I agree with what you're saying.

If there's no benefit to going through the motions, I don't see the point after the first time. Sure, you can pretend you don't know where the painting is, but you do. Yes, it's knowledge the character wouldn't have buy since you're not learning it anew, it's just killing time to go through the motions.

As you mentioned a randomness factor, when my dream RPG is created, it'll randomize every npc in the game to some extent (along with other elements in the game) so that no one can write a guide saying "Do this here".

For a game like Arcanum where everything is set and the only variation beyond chest contents and random encounters is the variation based on which skills/schematics/spells your character learns, then only those things are interesting. The different experience between a guy who fears ore golems and one who doesn't pay them any mind but dreads a pack of putrid rodents is great.

The fact that encountering a dark individual with a tech party that can't make explosives, paralyzers, or anesthetic has a decent chance of being the death of one of your party even up to the mid 20's in level but is pretty much harmless to a party where your character can cast stun or disarm is such a game altering experience that it makes replaying fun.

That's why I never can understand the mindset of people who want their characters to reach LVL120+ and cast every spell and max all skills. I love games where specialization is the only way to succeed.

 

One of the things I like about Arcanum is that you can dabble to a certain extent. You can do a whole bunch of things at the Expert level instead of picking a few things to master and still have a good time.

Still, I dig what you're saying.

I never understood that "I got all the cool hacks and made the ultimate character" mindset either. Arcanum wouldn't be so addicting if there wasn't so much replay value. And a big part of that is not being able to do practically everything during one epic playthrough.

 

I'd love to help, but I don't get into modding. I also think it would need to be built from the ground up (at least my vision of it).

For me, the ultimate game is a combination of Arcanum/Kotor/and Wizardry 8 - taking Arcanum's concept, throwing in Kotor's navigation and combat mechanics (plus voice acting), and wizardry's skill point system.

The sad thing to me though is the fact that Arcanum comes so close to being perfect in my book but falls just a tiny bit short. Had they added a casting skill, balanced schematics (you should never have to combine 2 items and end up with a shittier item than one of the ingredients), added a bunch of tech enemies, balanced weapon damage and added more combat effects, and separated dex from weapon speed, Arcanum would be pretty much perfect.

While that all sounds like a lot, I think it's just the final polish they didn't give themselves time to perform when they published the game.

 

I agree about tech enemies. Not only would it be great to have more chances to loot guns and other nifty items off people you killed, but it just doesn't make sense to me that there aren't more technologists roaming around the world of Arcanum.

People who live in the bigger cities can buy schematics for all sorts of special helmets and pyro axes and things from shops. Especially in Tarant, where people could buy manuals from the university, there should be people walking around with envenomed swords and stuff instead of (for the most part, anyway) fairly crappy gear.

I can see why they would want you to go through the joys and pains of making your own stuff instead of just becoming an Expert pickpocket and robbing everyone blind. But the world feels less real to me because the default choice is usually leather armor and a generic sword. It seems like you should run into more NPCs who have things like feather-weight axes or flow disruptor shields.

 

I also agree that some things like tech enemies and schematics need implemented and tweaking.

Though I admit I play arcanum just for the story and to get a feel for the world. I don't roleplay in the game except for the fact I always play as a good character. I don't think that counts though.

 

The fine degrees of morality are where I focus my role-playing. Some characters are racist, some are class-conscious, some despise industry and never harm animals, while others never speak impolitely but kill for profit. I do take a lot of time to clarify the moral code of each character.

To a lesser degree, they also have clear ambitions in Arcanum, whether it is money, magick, real-estate or an effective mercenary team.

The NPC followers also have to be consistent with my characters tastes and prejudices.

After 10 years playing the game, there's always some metagaming going on, but it remains a role-playing game.

 

After playing through with a total pacifist (not even letting followers hurt enemies), I played as a raving lunatic who killed everything in sight. It has robbed me of a few bad habits, like spamming Ristezze's chest and double-crossing Arbalah.

It did add the bad habit of save-scumming, though.

 

I've really only tried to roleplay with characters where some built-in limitation (like low charisma and beauty due to being a Half-Orc who was Raised By Orcs, or being really dumb because I was Raised in the Pits) kept me from doing my standard Expert in Persuasion/lots of followers routine.

But even with my last dumb character, I still used Persuasion to do stuff just to see what the dialogue options were like and save myself some effort. So that was really a meta thing.

So trying to play more like Muro has been... kind of frustrating, but in a good way.

With Eliot, that results in things like "I don't think Eliot would spend any longer than he had to inside the Wheel Clan. So I don't know if I should go around asking for side quests to do. But on the other hand, there was that episode of Leverage where he showed a lot of sympathy for some miners working in poor conditions. So... Go kill the Dread Crystal Spiders?"

On the one hand, it makes leveling up a little harder. But on the other hand, it takes away some of that "going through the motions" feeling by making me think more about what quests to accept.

 

For me, metagaming like a mofo is the most fun.

Once I'm comfortably ensconced at level 126, I can immerse myself in the story rather than the mechanics.

Characters like Gandalf and Dumbledore (or The Master from Hellboy when evil) are my favourite choice. Superhuman wizards. They can do nearly anything, but they have a subtle agenda and moral code.

Arcanum forces a nice, steady pace to the story and the NPC companions all fit into it beautifully.

Even cheating in every possible way, it is a good story and a fun challenge, with plenty of colourful achievements to earn along the way.

 

I screwed up with Eliot and ended up stealing the Jewel of Hebe because I needed one more point in Charisma in order to recruit Sebastian while I was still at level 30.

The "trying to roleplay" part of me thinks I should go back to an earlier save game and resist the temptation to spend a couple of points on Bow and get Expert training while I was in Caladon. I can't justify stealing something my character wouldn't know about and it's kind of iffy that Eliot would use a bow in the first place.

But the more cynical meta part of me remembers how much easier it was to do things like fighting my way through the Caladon sewers and going after Clan Maug when I could use Ellumyn's Bow effectively.

I've been relying pretty heavily on a serrated chakram, so it's not like I need another combat skill. But on the other hand... I kick more ass now. So... Do I keep going or do I go back and do stuff the hard way?

On the show, Eliot mostly uses knives and baseball bats (or some other blunt instrument that happens to be lying around, like a crowbar). So, if I was going to be really "method", I would stick with my collection of daggers and maybe a mace. Possibly a katana, since he got a cool one in the latest Christmas episode. Maybe some throwing knives since he's used those before. And if I really wanted to be in character, I would fight without any weapon at all sometimes...

So I'm already "cheating" by using some of the magic swords I've found in chests and my trusty chakram. They're reasonably in-character weapon choices, but still...

I had a lot of fun today killing undead creatures with my new bow. Shouldn't I just go with that instead of forcing myself to take on Gore Guards with the Blade of Xerxes?

 

Followers are the only reason I'll break character. I'm simply not going to play the game and get to level 20something before I have a reason to go to Dernholm (I don't destroy machines and deliver ingredients).

As for what weapons to use, don't beat yourself up. It's impossible to play an exact duplicate of a character from a different mythos. The skills never exactly match. Gandalf was a wizard but in Arcanum you'd probably make him a melee fighter using a staff since he didn't actually USE a lot of magic in the books.

There is always some Metagaming going on when you know both outcomes. Solving the quest for the painting before the quest with the crystal ball or knowing that a low level, extremely useful follower is waiting in Dernholm are things you can't make yourself forget. I would find it less fun to stringently role play and make that useful character absolutely useless because she's so far behind me in experience than to just go recruit her with my metaknowledge.

Do what's fun for you. For me, I'd probably not use the bow because I enjoy seeing what's easier and what's harder with a different character. Between that and comparing notes with others on what's difficult with a different playstyle (like I've never had a problem with Ore Golems (though they have killed Virgil a couple of times (but then again, a sewer rat is the only enemy I HAVEN'T lost Virgil to at some point)) but people complain about them all the time. I never hear people bitch about putrid rodents but they probably account for half the early deaths of my parties), the game takes on a lot of new interest.