And what's the deal with anti-depressant drugs?

I did feel an effect from the anti-depressants the same day. They made me feel worse, I didn't have any fun on doing anything. My navigation sense went so poor I lost the path when I was walking in a forest, suddenly I just noticed I was in the middle of nowhere. First day I also got a bit tired, tried to take a nap, but couldn't sleep. I got an erection, but wasn't sexually aroused otherwise. Couple next days I had massive headache.

When I got used to the substance, my mood wasn't changed from the usual depression and indifference. Though I remember laughing often for no reason at all. I prefer laughing with a reason, then the laughing makes me feel happy, otherwise it doesn't.

After some six month use I stopped and then I felt stupid electric shock feelings for a month. First very often and later not so frequent.

 

I wasn't clear in my previous post (but you give a good example to support my point)- once initially taking the anti-depressant, the desired effect isn't immediate. As in your case (much like many people) the lessening of depression doesn't even happen at all. The side effect profile of these drugs is astonishing considering the rate at which they are prescribed. I'm certainly not knocking those who find benefit from them, but I find it disturbing that 167 million prescriptions were dolled out in the U.S. in 2008 and the frequency is only increasing. I doubt this is the place for such a discussion....eh...why the hell not.

 

The doctors I've met try to make the side effects sound less than they are, that they're rare. The doctors also want me to eat some anti-psychotic drugs and then they even try to make the side effects sound like desired effects. I'm thin and sleep rhythm is a bit off, so they tell me it would be a good thing to gain some weight and to become tired. I don't want to gain weight unless it's muscle and I don't like to be tired. Sure cannabis can make me tired too, but that's why I don't use very often.

Now when the doctors start to talk about drugs to me, I sort of lock my self and ignore the conversation. If say something, it will be extremely vague. I've told many times which side effects worry me, but still everytime they would like me to tell them which side effects worry me.

Do they have some kind of memory problems, or did they not write a report the previous time? Well, this time I didn't tell any specific side effects that worried me. I told I haven't memorized them as I wasn't interested. Truthfully I'm just tired of answering the same questions again and again.

They just don't seem to get it. I guess I should be more direct with them. I've also thought of quoting some line from Sinuhe The Egyptian.. it goes something like this:"Your speech is like the buzzing of flies to my ears". It's just a bit insulting.. or they might think that I really hear flies buzzing around.

 

One huge issue is the relationship between physicians and drug reps. Drug reps take physicians out for lunch, give free drug samples, note pads, pens, etc. It's an effective ploy to persuade the physician to buy into their spiel (instead of the doctor using the scientific methods he/she spent years to learn). Next time your in for an office visit, check out the pens the doctors and nurses are using. Also take a look at the notepads...I will almost guarantee they have a drug name stamped on them. Here at my university, we are not permitted to take promotional items or have contact with pharmaceutical reps.

Best advice, yes be direct and specific. Most times the physician is rushed because HMOs etc dictate that a certain number of "units" are to be seen on a set time block. It is a complicated situation beyond the scope of this forum.

Be your own health advocate and learn as much about your condition and medications as possible. Good places to start are below:

http://www.medicalstudent.com/#MedicalTextbooks

http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/index.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/

...I know I will hit the vault of folly at some point...

 

People just need to man up. Drugs won't fix the root of the problem, not being whiney bitches will.

 

They should extend that philosophy to all patients! Those wimpy, tumour-ridden bastards have leeched off the system for long enough! How about curing your own diseases for a change!?

 

Sometimes I wonder if taking over-the-counter 5-HTP and Vitamin B would work better for depression than antidepressants.

 

anti-depressants?

if you think you may need anti-depressants, eat magic mushrooms, some quality acid, or find yourself real mescaline.

Because the ones listed above aren't easy to find, I'd recommend combining salvia with kundalini yoga, silent meditation (just sit and try not to think), or any other number of spiritual Eastern practices.

To properly take Salvia, make sure you use a torch through a water bong, burn as much as you can, and then hold it in for 25-30 seconds. supposedly, you should hold for at least 30 seconds, but not all of us have the lungs for it. Also, you can achieve the disconnection effect by continuously smoking it until you go, and you'll know when you've gone.

http://www.erowid.org/

I used to get depressed before I went to the edge of consciousness and proved my own truths to myself. Now, it is impossible for me to be "depressed." Sure, I can be sad, but I am so heavily rooted in my own personal truths that no mood, thought, or emotion can move me for too long. I'll witness depression and experience it, but I no longer identify with it. Don't say "I am depressed," say instead, "I witness depression."

Google Mooji or read Anthony De Mello's "The Way to Love."

 

Anyone else sufficiently freaked out by the above?

 

I'm more freaked out by the massive amount of one month gravedigs he has done on almost every topic.

 

I actually approve his message.

 

The crap thing is, either you've tried the above and so your opinion can't be completely relied upon absolutely, as it is said under the influence of whatever it is you're advocating (seeing as it's a permanently altered state you're promoting, and not merely a temporary one, since that would be irrelevant to the point), or you haven't tried it, in which case you don't really know what you're talking about! I'm not intentionally being malicious; that's just what occured to me!

 

lol

discounting an opinion simply because insight may've been gained while under the influence is one of the easiest ways to spot someone with a rigid paradigm. DOn't be rigid, my friend, as the river will break the rigid and merely bend the soft.



Sooner or later, maybe on your deathbed, you'll recognize that this whole consciousness and reality thing runs much deeper than your socialized attitude could've ever imagined. Let me point you to some readings:

Ghost Hunters: William James and the Search for Scientific Proof of Life After Death
By Deborah Blum
http://astore.amazon.com/windbridge-20/ ... B000VPP9RI

Science and the Near-Death Experience: How Consciousness Survives Death
By Chris Carter
http://astore.amazon.com/windbridge-20/ ... 1594773564

Life Before Life: Children's Memories of Previous Lives
By Jim Tucker
http://astore.amazon.com/windbridge-20/ ... 031237674X

Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century by E. D. Kelly and E. W. Kelly

What Happens When We Die: A Groundbreaking Study into the Nature of Life and Death by Sam Parnia, head of the Consciousness Project at the University of Southampton.

On Life After Death by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross

Spook: Science Tackles the Afterlife by Mary Roach

Paranormal Experience and Survival of Death by Carl Becker, 1993

A Critical Examination of the Belief in a Life after Death by Curt Ducasse, 1961

The Atheist Afterlife by David Staume, 2009, (the odds of an afterlife: reasonable; the odds of meeting God there: nil)

A Glimpse of Heaven: The Remarkable World of Spiritually Transforming Experiences by Carla Wills-Brandon (2003), different types of spiritual experiences that can transform one’s life, including NDEs, death-bed visions, and more.

Persons, Souls, and Death: A Philosophical Investigation of an Afterlife by David Lund (2009)—a philosopher who defends the afterlife on empirical (and philosophical) grounds.

Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences by Jeffrey Long (with Paul Perry), 2010

Consciousness After Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience by Pim van Lommel 2010 (renowned Dutch cardiologist runs a study—with a longitudinal aspect—of 344 cardiac patients, all of whom were clinically dead, to see how many had NDEs)

Life After Life by Raymond Moody—a/the classic and the first of its kind, published in 1975. See also The Light Beyond (1998) by Moody.

Coming Back to Life: The After-Effects of the Near-Death Experience by P. M. H. Atwater (2001)

The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences: The Ultimate Guide to What Happens When We Die by P. M. H. Atwater (2007)

The Scole Experiment: Scientific Evidence for Life After Death by Grant and Jane Solomon (2000). These experiments are interesting, but the book is ridiculously expensive. Try this website: www.scoleexperiment.com

Recollections of Death by Michael Sabom (1982)

Life After Death: The Burden of Proof by Deepak Chopra

Nothing Better Than Death by Kevin Williams (2002): Offers an extensive analysis of 62 near-death experiences. See also his website: www.near-death.com. His book can be downloaded or viewed for free there.

Lessons from the Light by Ken Ring and Evelyn VaLarino, 1998

Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation by Janice Holden (and others), 2009)

Near-Death Experiences: Exploring the Mind-Body Connection by Ornella Corazza (In one chapter she studies how characteristics of NDEs might be chemically induced by using ketamine.), 2008

The Near-Death Experiences of Hospitalized Intensive Care Patients: A Five Year Clinical Study by Penny Sartori—might be difficult to find, published by Edwin Mellen Press, 2008, and is UNBELIEVABLY expensive. Interlibrary loan?

Dying to Live: Near-Death Experiences by Susan Blackmore, 1993.
Blackmore is a former researcher into parapsychology who moved from advocate to debunker. She has moved away from explorations of the paranormal, some say because she could not refute the evidence of the paranormal that she had come to doubt. See Chris Carter on Blackmore.

Journal of Near-Death Studies; available through
http://www.iands.org/pubs/jnds/

Mellen-Thomas Benedict’s website dealing with his near-death experience: http://www.mellen-thomas.com/
From his website: “After suffering from a terminal illness, in 1982 Mellen-Thomas Benedict ‘died’ and for an hour and a half he was monitored showing no vital signs. Miraculously he returned to his body with a complete remission of the disease – and what may be the most inspirational near-death experience story known to date.”

Testing Mediums:

The Afterlife Experiments by Gary Schwartz (U of A psychiatry and psychology professor tests selected mediums, but may reveal more about himself and his enthusiasms than about the tests themselves)

The Articulate Dead by Michael Tymn (a book reminiscent of Ghost Hunters in that Tymn examines the cases of several of the best mediums from the bygone era)

Life After Death: Some of the Best Evidence by Jan W. Vandersande

Is There an Afterlife? by David Fontana (a comprehensive study of the evidence on many aspects of afterlife “survival,” especially chapters on mediums, many of whom you’ve already read about)

Forty Years of Psychic Research and The Mystery of the Buried Crosses, both by Hamlin Garland (1937 & 1939, respectively)—Ghost Hunters ends, roughly, with the death of William James. Thus you miss any discussion of research between then and now. Garland’s work fills in that gap somewhat, and he tells the remarkable story of the buried crosses.

On Ian Stevenson and Reincarnation:

www.childpastlives.org has an interview with Stevenson and also a page devoted to his work.

Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation by Ian Stevenson

“Do Any Near-Death Experiences Provide Evidence for the Survival of Human Personality After Death? Relevant Features and Illustrative Case Reports,” Journal of Scientific Exploration 12 (1998), 377-406, by E. W. Kelly, B. Greyson, and I. Stevenson.

The above article and the one below present cases of people who report accurate information far away from the room where they are dead and are being resuscitated.

“Can Experiences Near Death Furnish Evidence of Life After Death?” In Omega: The Journal of Death and Dying, 40, no. 4 (1999-2000), 513-519, by E. W. Kelly, B. Greyson, and I. Stevenson.

“Empirical Evidence for Reincarnation? Examining Stevenson’s ‘Most Impressive Cases,’” by Leonard Angel, Skeptical Inquirer 18: 481-87.

Reincarnation: A Critical Examination by Paul Edwards, 1996
A critical, if not skeptical, examination.

“Hallucinatory Near-Death Experiences” by Keith Augustine (2003, updated 2008)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... HNDEs.html
Extensive critical survey of the evidence concerning NDEs.

Many Lives, Many Masters: The True Story of a Prominent Psychiatrist, His Young Patient, and the Past-Life Therapy That Changed Both Their Lives by Brian Weiss.

Soul Survivor: The Reincarnation of a World War II Fighter Pilot by Andrea Leininger (reprint edition, 2010)—story of a little boy who recalls precise and multiple details of his former life as a fighter pilot.

Website on reincarnation: www.ial.goldthread.com. It’s got all sorts of stuff on reincarnation—comments, articles, radio interviews, updates, suggested links. It also advertises a video—In Another Life—that is a full-length documentary featuring noted researchers.

Closer to the Light by Melvin Morse and Paul Perry (1990)—children and reincarnation.

Looking for Carroll Beckwith by Robert L. Snow (1999)—story of a police homicide commander, Robert Snow, who, on a bet, participated in a “memory recovery” hypnosis session that ends up shaking his world.

Reincarnation: True Stories of Past Lives by Roy Stemman (2004)—supposedly packed with lots of examples. YouTube has a bit on the Pollack sisters, reincarnated into the same family that lost them.

The Case Against Reincarnation by James Webster (2009)—argues for an afterlife but against reincarnation.

CONSCIOUSNESS:

Consciousness: A User’s Guide by Adam Zeman

Consciousness: An Introduction by S. J. Blackmore

The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory by David Chalmers

Mystery of the Mind: A Critical Study of Consciousness and the Human Brain by Wilder Penfield

GLADIATORS, MEDDLERS, PEDDLERS, AND PIONEERS:

• The Windbridge Institute (http://www.windbridge.org/)
Dr. Julie Beischel’s outfit. Windbridge provides scientific evidence for life after death and for our loved ones' continued existence in our lives.

•The Skeptical Inquirer—a magazine from the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (www.csiop.org)

•Dean Radin Blog: Entangled Minds (http://deanradin.blogspot.com)

• Michael Tymn Blog: http://whitecrowbooks.com/michaeltymn/

•Scientific Committee to Evaluate PseudoSkeptical Criticism of the Paranormal—a group that debunks the debunkers (www.debunkingskeptics.com)

•Skeptiko—a guy [Alex Tsakiris] who explores the cutting edges of science, especially to see whether the materialist paradigm can be overturned by the evidence of paranormal phenomena (www.skeptiko.com)

•Subversive Thinking—the website of some guy who labels himself a “true skeptic” or one who is open-minded. He’s interested in any thinking that subverts by questioning “controversial topics” including paranormal phenomena, afterlife research, pseudoskepticism, reductionistic materialism, dogmatic atheism, philosophy of consciousness, etc.
(www.subversivethinking.blogspot.com)

• Society for Scientific Exploration (www.scientificexploration.org):
a professional organization of scientists and scholars who study unusual and unexplained phenomena. Subjects often cross mainstream boundaries, such as consciousness, ufos, and alternative medicine, yet often have profound implications for human knowledge and technology.

The SSE was founded in 1982 and has approximately 800 members in 45 countries worldwide. The SSE publishes a peer-reviewed journal, the Journal of Scientific Exploration (JSE), and holds annual meetings in the USA and biennial meetings in Europe. Associate and student memberships are available to the public, and everyone is encouraged to attend meetings and participate with the society.

• Forever Family Foundation: www.foreverfamilyfoundation.org, is a non-profit, non-sectarian organization that supports the premise that life does not end with physical death, furthers the understanding of Afterlife Science and survival of consciousness, and offers support to the bereaved. Among the active members of the organization and the executive board are scientists, researchers (including Julie Beischel), medical doctors, educators and mediums who have devoted substantial parts of their careers to the investigation of the survival hypothesis - an existence beyond this physical world. The Forever Family Foundation is in the same vein as the Windbridge Institute. The FFF also certifies psychics.


• A website with radio interviews with psychics, mediums, consciousness explorers: www.contacttalkradio.com/hosts/archives ... flife.html.

• NDERF or Near Death Experience Research Foundation: www.nderf.org. Started by Dr. Jeffrey Long (author of Evidence of the Afterlife, listed above); claims to be “the largest Near Death Experience website in the world.”

• www.afterlifedata.com
claims to be the largest database of afterlife descriptions and analysis on the Internet; battling with NDERF?
See also www.afterliferesearch.info/index.html, a group that seems principally drawn from folks at the University of Bristol in the UK.

 

I appreciate the disclaimer here; I am not offended.

I was reacting more to the suggestion of meditation as opposed to the controlled substance use, but I never made that clear. I only approve some of his message.

 

Re: lol

As it happens, I was merely directing attention towards a fallacy in the argument; my personal opinion never came into account here. As your response was not an amendment of the flaw in the logical structure of your argument, it is obvious that, from a critical analysis' point of view, you've essentially said nothing whatsoever, save, from a sympathetic point of view, for some biased conjecture and fanciful dogma - again, I'm merely pointing out what immediately occurs to me; I don't harbour any resentment or contempt towards the poster, and I'm also a little curious as to how someone will respond to this (as the only choice seems, to me, to be an acceptance that they're being nonsensical, and either they can't express logically what it is they're trying to say, or that the entire experience may be subjective, which might be enough for them).

What I (perhaps mistakenly) infer from this, is that you yourself believe that consciousness and reality, &c., run deeper than a socialized attitude that you consider predominant while having never experienced it yourself (which is a fine opinion, but not a logical proposition), or that you believe you have certain, a priori proof of this, which would require some sort of absolutely transcendental noumena on your part, essentially shattering any possibility of perceiving such an experience, as it would necessarily contradict basic intuitive tautological principles required for even the most elementary ontology; thus, while it is in fact possible to believe you've had such an experience, if you place any belief in the belief itself, you are directly contradicting your own assertion.

Though mine is not as long and detailed as yours (for the sake of succinctness and directly addressing your points and choice of reading directly), I suppose it is only common courtesy to supply a reading list of my own:


Gödel, Kurt; On formally undecidable propositions of Principia mathematica and related systems (New York: Basic Books, c1962).

Kant, Immanuel; Critique of Pure Reason (Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press , 1998).

Wittgenstein, Ludwig; Philosophical Investigations (Oxford: Blackwell, 1997).

Wittgenstein, Ludwig; Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd, 1949).

 

I dig what your saying, PlastickCouch. But I add the disclaimer: Kids! Don't try this at home!

Pushing the edge of consciousness is a dangerous journey.

 

Salvia was never enough to push me over the edge. I tried one of the dream chemicals, Bufotenin, and that was pretty close, though I feared going on a full-force trip due to it's propensity for causing nausea. No way I'm going to die choking on my own vomit like some drugged out celebrity. Take my advice;
All psychotropic drugs can be bad for you. If you have to do one, read as much as you can about it on erowid or in physical sources such as books, or on a kindle if you have one. Plus, have someone watch you. Tripping alone is dangerous and can be fatal. If you're on something like bufotenin, DMT, or 5-MEO-DMT (all chemicals that can be found in the human brain), the trip can seem more real than your actual life, and may cause a psychotic break. I don't recommend any of it. Hell, if you're schizoaffective like me, don't even smoke pot because that can cause a break too.

 

O man! I'm reading House of Leaves and it abounds with footnotes! Talk about something that pushes the edge of consciousness!

EDIT: Correcting book title and including a link...

 

Can anyone (possibly ytzk, as I think I recall that he's a psych student) give a critical account of the psychological effects of meditation?

 

I'll give you an overly critical one: it doesn't do a whole lot for me.

Not that it does nothing, I experience what I could dramatically describe as a complete shift in perception/perspective, like an OOBE without leaving the body per se. Then I open my eyes and think "well that was a waste of time."

Your mileage will most probably vary. :thumbup: