Help - Newbie get's his ass kicked

Hm... With a little bit of imagination, maybe?
Don't forget that the first analytical computer looked something like this:



No Dual Core in there, eh?

There are known automatons that can write, draw, play chess, dance, and so on - and all that with not much more than springs and cogwheels.

I often wish that period in time would have lasted a lot longer. Nowadays the magic of computers and machines seems to have totally disappeared - at least to me.

 

there are robots that can do this, but generally they require a microprocessor of some kind. the automaton's construction might be mechanically complex, but i don't think there's an implication of some sort of microprocessor, just gears. or are there actually machines that can do these things with macroscopic parts?

i'm no expert on the topic, but it seems to me that analog computers were generally only designed and built to perform mechanistic tasks, and not simulate intelligence. in that, i think your comparison with the early computer was a good one, but of course it only emphasizes the distinctions between automatons and more modern constructs. Of course, technically an analog computer could be built to do just about anything that a microprocessor could, but then you'd have to design the analog computer after the microprocessor and modern computing was invented, which seems kind of anachronistic.

this seems like something that is very much in dispute even with modern technology, about whether consciousness can be sufficiently emulated, or whether machines can be trusted in combat and other life-and-death situations. then again, this also comes along with the territory of post-modernity, in which people often tend to distrust technology (although some more than others)

Arcanum draws on a wide range of eras, although mostly the 19th century and early 20th. It has trains, engines, dynamite, blimps and repeating weapons, but it also has technology from other eras. It has non-ironclad ships, castles, flintlock pistols, bows and swords, which point to much earlier times. There are early aircraft and submersibles of the following decades. There is a proliferation of repeating weapons, which couldn't occur until decades later, although it's still roughly the right period - i imagine a good survey of the weapons of this period (i.e. very late 19th c.) would be characterized by the rifle, clarington rifle, and levered machine gun (which didn't make it in). It also has very modern items, like plastique, flamethrowers, the tranquilizer gun, shocking staff (i.e. taser), which are really interesting and are reinterpretations of modern technology while still remaining within the same steampunk theme.

The automaton/medical arachnid fall within the range of somewhat futuristic items, like the accelerator gun, chapeau of magnetic inversion, charged ring that could theoretically be possible, although not within the parameters established by the game (generally, within the schematic text). My view of this is that these are outgrowths of the sorts of technology that the moderns of this period (1985) probably imagined that they would soon be able to produce, with a nearly unlimited faith in the sciences and human progress. They're also reinterpretations of later technology to fit with this era's theme or feel. This also explains the presence of just about everything in therapeutics: it's the effects that are imagined or believed could be achieved with the era's knowledge of medicine.

in other words, medical arachnids don't need an explanation of how they work, since they're a conceptualization of beliefs and theories as much as science. Of course, this also means that they probably don't have a foundation in reality. If you gave a person from this era the game on a computer, i imagine that if you asked them which devices might be realistic, they couldn't differentiate which ones would appear in which eras and which could actually be built or not built even with modern technology. after all, a computer - especially a laptop - would probably be even more unbelievable than a tesla gun, which as we know is impossible to build.

of course, the fact that arcanum isn't earth and has a completely different premodern history has to be taken into account... but then, the game was designed around actual human history and technology, just reinterpreted.

 

The most famous ones were built by Pierre Jaquet Droz, a Frenchman who lived in the 18th century.

They do, of course, have their limitations, but then again: so do computers. They need to be programmed as well before they can actually do something.

To my own amazement there is footage of Jaquet Droz's automatons on YouTube, so see for yourself:

The writer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1nxETblSi4
The writer's "intestines":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ypKJWXFj48

The organ player:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OcB25IXPYY

The artist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fre32oY7Qx0

Here is a fake automaton, but do watch the vids 'cause they are awesome. They have this certain je-ne-sais-quoi, something between fun and utter melancholy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWdKNtKtbPk (watch the little blackboards)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHBkdRq9y44 (listen what he says at the end)

All in all, creepy stuff, but MAGICKAL. Magickal.

 

wow that's crazy, man. I can't believe they had those in the late 18th century. I guess you could perform the basic functions of an automaton in Arcanum if you used steam power to make attacks or walk. the only difficulty would be choosing which routines, then, as the automaton would have to know when to walk and when to attack, and where to walk to and what direction to attack. But, that's a reasonable difficulty, I think.

 

Well the vids are quite amazing but you must not forget one thing about these "early robots". There is absolutely no intelligence in these machines.

There was no programming, only mechanical pregiven operations. There are no "if" decisions made by these machines. E.g. the writer, if there is no paper in front of me etc.

BUT what is intelligence, it's something trained. So you can only make the decision what to do when there is no paper (to come back to above sample) when you've already learned what is to do. So you need a sort of memory and these early machines had nothing like this.

A topic you can discuss endless about. I think in Arcanum, as Magic is in the world, my believe is that there is a sort of combination between technic and magic, the magic is the thing that gives some sort of live to the mechanical critters ...

English is not my native language, i hope i made my thoughts above clear

Housedog

 

if there was magic in the automaton, its mechanistic properties would begin to fail. And yeah, like I said, the real automatons can't choose between routines, they're just a matter of winding up. This works fine for clockwork decoys, but the automaton has to follow the PC. As far as the sensory perceptions of the automaton, and lack of analysis even if they were possible, this is by no means the most incredible thing in arcanum. For example: the tesla rod/tesla gun. It's not possible to project electrical energy like this without a medium. You could get shocked from a tesla coil if you were close, but you can't choose where the electricity goes. But, it's still interesting, and it's a use of interesting technology that was never weaponized (as far as I know)

 

There is no intelligence in a computer either. Computers need input to function and that input always needs to come from the only truly intelligent being on Earth: i.e. humans. Without humans, computers are not much more than plastic boxes filled with wires and other crap.

Don't forget that even this little chap (http://asimo.honda.com/) is still not capable to function without being programmed beforehand. It's just a very complex automaton, the clockwork device has been changed into a couple of micro-processors and you don't need to wind it up like a toy anymore, no: this one feeds on electricity. But all in all: what is the difference?

That is arguable, to say the least. Programming = pregiven operations. (I think you are confusing "programming" with "A.I.")
Babbage's "Analytical Machine", which resembles the interior of Jaquet Droz's automatons in more than one way, needed to be programmed before it could function. This happened with punch(ed) cards. Jaquet Droz's Organ Player worked in a similar fashion, but the punch(ed) cards were metal cylinders with little spikes attached to them instead of holes punched into them. These punch(ed) cards and cylinders do not look like a computer program to us, spoiled 21st century brats, but they are in fact exactly the same thing, they are only more limited due to the fact that they are macroscopic and not microscopic parts.



Jaquet Droz's Writer could write texts up to 40 words (or letters, I forget). All one had to do was to "program" its interior clockwork device, input the text one desired and the automaton could write it down sans faults.

Theoretically speaking, it would be perfectly possible to construct an automaton that is capable of making "if" decisions, as you choose to call them. If one can imitate Boolean logic and operations with simple building blocks as LEGO (http://goldfish.ikaruga.co.uk/logic.html and http://anon.razorwire.com/lego/ for example), one could surely do it with clockwork devices.
I can perfectly imagine a single automaton capable of performing all the tasks that Jaquet Droz needed to build three automatons for. And yes: it would most certainly be feasible to add an extra piece of machinery that would scan the table in front of it to "see" whether there is a piece of paper in front of it or rather a piano. Etcetera. The problem is the sheer complexity such a clockwork would require and the size it would take. It would be monstruous. It would be an Über-automaton.

Intelligence is something trained? Hm... I seriously doubt that, 'cause that would mean that inventing something new would not be a sign of intelligence - which it most surely is. Inventing the wheel is not something humans were trained to do, but still I consider it to be a clear sign of high intelligence, and I think most people regard it that way.

Anyway, back to the automatons: that they have some sort of memory is proven by the fact that they are capable of performing the same tasks again and again: that means they possess an internal mechanism that is able to store data - in a mechanical fashion, yes, but it stores data nonetheless. Jaquet Droz's Artist is able to make 5 different drawings which it chooses from at random. And Jaquet Droz's Writer is - as I said before - able to write quite big texts as long as they are programmed into its clockwork mechanism beforehand. That's mechanical memory for you, right there.

 

think of it this way Arcanum is heavy magick tech is new so everyone has a minor give int to nonliveing things that move on their own spell (witch has a 0 magick complexity sorta like scrolls of exiting).

 

I'm not sure there is anything magical which has 0 magic complexity. In my opinion, the scroll of exiting has 0 complexity so everyone could use it for gameplay reasons, not because it is an example of a magic item that shows how a technologist can use magic.

@floyd-
there is no doubt that the complexity of an automaton's actions can be executed, or that any combination of simple actions can be transformed into complex actions. Let's disregard the fact that the automaton doesn't have a a microprocessor and its physical size might be a limiting factor. An automaton could clear a whole dungeon by itself, provided that all the enemies stayed still and it knew roughly how many blows it takes to kill each of them. However, this isn't a realistic scenario.

Even modern computers need input. Their programming can allow them to perform complex operations, but this is because they are aware of all their internal conditions, i.e. other processes running in the computer environment. Thus, a program can search for viruses, but the computer can't tell you if the room it's in is light or dark without a built-in camera. And, the computer can't respond to voice commands unless you install a microphone. Automatons have no sensory data, as far as I can tell. They're 19th century automaton through and through. So, they have to respond to voice commands or radio waves or something, or they can't perform any kind of decision-making processes with respect to their external environment.

 

I've been thinking about the automatons, and I believe their aggressive behavior is triggered by some detectors placed on appropriate spots. For example, someone entering their protected areas (like the Tarant sewers or the house of the scientist in Ashbury, or Vendigroth), or messing with the objects of the exhibition in Caladon. (IIRC, there are no automations you don't control, with innocents nearby)

But anyway, I'd say we should overlook this tiny little detail, and think of it as a MacGuffin device instead of a plot hole.

Besides, no sane 19th century inventor capable of creating automations would disclose the details of such a grand feat