What if....

Discussion in 'Arcanum 2 Suggestion Forum' started by rroyo, May 26, 2009.

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  1. Omnuscraft

    Omnuscraft New Member

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    I guess that is true. You're right, he is top dog in the Hand. Guess it's been a while since T'sen Ang. Well, I guess it's possible he could be being manipulated by a close colleague or friend and gets betrayed.
     
  2. rroyo

    rroyo Active Member

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    Arcanum: Rise of the Defilers - I'd have to agree with Naughty Dog on this and for the same reasons. Sorry.

    Having a turn-coat assassin for a follower.... This sounds like it has potential and could be used to include the Molochean Hand destruction I mentioned on page one. Just a thought there.
    It might even be possible to make the assassin into the Virgil replacement. He meets the Survivor in Shrouded Hills, accompanies him back to the Crash Site, etc., etc., and during the game learn his true nature.

    Of course, meeting the Defiler in the manner you suggested (staged attack in another town) has considerable potential too.
     
  3. Omnuscraft

    Omnuscraft New Member

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    Glad you like the idea's Naughty Dog and I are throwing around. :D
     
  4. Xiao_Caity

    Xiao_Caity New Member

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    This sounds so incredibly cool. An assassin as an ally! *is thinking of Pratchett's Assassins, who are all about style, or turn into Lord Vetinari*
     
  5. Archmage Orintil

    Archmage Orintil New Member

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    Sort of like Vollinger? That was wasted potential in the game. A similar arc with actual character depth would be interesting, especially if the moment of betrayal was a bit random, making it more of a surprise.
     
  6. No! Naughty dog!

    No! Naughty dog! New Member

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    I think the turn-coating happened before meeting the player so I don't really see the Vollinger connection.

    Well these are just rough ideas that need shining up we could develop some actual character depth over the next couple of days, The best way to do it would to be to in depth write his history and then write a few scenario's that would test the character in different ways and discuss how the character would react
     
  7. Xiao_Caity

    Xiao_Caity New Member

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    One thing we need to do is make sure that his status as an assassin is either a secret until the reveal (but with the occasional little hint so that us clever players can pick it up over time) or right out there in the open. There's really no middle ground here, and taking the former path but doing it badly will really screw the character's potential.

    I'd contribute more than that, but Spicks and Specks is on and my brain is in full-on :rofl: mode.

    Love the idea though, we just need to make damn sure we don't bollock it up.
     
  8. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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    I really can't play without Darke Magicks Modification. It's simply briliant! The changes made in VIP seem like a big nerf to Necromantic and Fire magic.

    The Changes Darke made are:

    1. Harm. Amped up the damage to 10-50, scaled.
    2. Lightning Bolt. Amped up the damage to 50-100, scaled.
    3. Fireflash. Amped up damage to 30-60, scaled.
    4. Quench Life. Now kills the opposition outright instead of doing damage (as originally intended). Is resisted by Constution -10 instead of -5.
    5. Agility of Fire, Vitality of Air, Purity of Water and Strength of Earth. Amped up the bonuses for each to +6, but made all non-stackable.
    6. Squall of Ice: Amped up damage to 5-25, or it was TOO USELESS.
    7. Jolt: Amped up damage to 5-30.
    8. Charm now boosts Charisma by +6.
    10. Drain Will renamed Stupefy, now sets INT and WP to 1, and halves speed. No longer needs to be maintained, lasts for 60 seconds.
    11. Weaken no longer needs to be maintained, it lasts for 60 seconds.
    12. Minor Healing: Amped up heal rate to 10-50, scaled.
    13. Major Healing: Amped up heal rate to 50-100, scaled.
    14. Flash: blindness lasts for 60 seconds now instead of 10.
    15. Congeal Time: no longer needs to be maintained, lasts for 60 seconds.
    16. Summon Undead was replaced by Steal Life. This spell steals the life force from the target and uses it to heal the caster's wounds and poison.
    17. Polymorph now transforms the target into a mighty and terrifying werewolf for as long as it's maintained. In fact, the result is so very terrible that some of your followers may flee from your side upon seeing you in the beastial form.
    18. Spatial Distortion was replaced by the Unseen Fist spell. This magick will send forth a blow from a mighty invisible fist, which will inflict Normal and Fatigue damage. Useful when you need to knock someone out without killing them outright.

    Necromancy is magic made for the puropse of embracing death. I'm sure Harm should remain unchanged and have 10-40 scaled damage so I change that myself because of it's low Fatugue usage. Or eventually lower the Fatugue usage on other very similar spells. Then I buff it back to 10-50.

    Fireflash on the other hand uses 15 fatigue for a AoE spell and should do more damage.

    As for Stone Throw it should be pterry much equal to Harm and vice versa.

    Bolt of lighting is using too much fatigue.

    And the spell debuffs should last no longer then 10 seconds.

    The problem with spellcasting is that we need to use staffs and potions in order to keep fighting unlike tech characters that use guns & ammo. That's why magic is more powerful then tech weapons. But not completely. Considering that the Tesla Gun has like 80 damage and the buffed Lightnigh Bolt 100 it's pretty much equal.

    Perhaps nerfing potions and saffs by about half of their effect would be a good idea and then ofc adjusting the fatigue usage and damage on the spells.

    As long as most of the tech items will be fixed like the Machined Plate that should give the wearer a strength bonus as intended I don't think there should be any problems with balance. Perhaps just giving some of the better tech weapons earlyer in the game might improve things. You get some of the best stuff really really late.

    I'm also missing the custom backgrounds I made:

    [​IMG]

    Wchis is an alternative to the Ogre/Mad Doctor Combination avalible only for humans and elves.

    And I'm also very used to the old interface with it's graphics and everything.

    Is there any possibility to get this mod with only the changes made to the Citie's/New Quests/Zones/New NPC's/Fixes?
     
  9. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    Actually, all those things just make magick even more powerful and imbalanced. Tech might have a chance in Arcanum against magick, but with those stats, it would be stupid to not to use magick.

    Hence the reason it is a seperate "fun" mode.
     
  10. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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    How is it imbalanced? If staffs where crap and potions didn't give much fatigue back you'd have to fight with what you have.

    In the way of replying more on yourself and your abilities then potions, staffs and weapons that give better stats now add the complete removal of the IMBA God blessing it would be perfect.

    Give a tech char the Tesla gun and you have 10-80 Energy Damage. That's pretty much the damage of the buffed lighting bolt. 1 bolt wastes 25 Fatigue. A Arcane Staff gives 80 Mana. And the blessing of Velorien gives Resist Magick +30, Dexterity +4, Resist Damage +30, Max Hit Points +100, Max Fatigue +100, Melee +12, Pick Pocket +12, Persuasion +12, Firearms +12, Dodge +12. Those things make magic so powerful. You have like 300 Fatigue.

    My idea is to simply nerf Mana giving items to the ground! Rely more on youyrself not on the gear and potions you have or imba blessings.

    Mystic Staff with 60 Mana? Nope 15!
    Arcane Staff giving 80 Mana? Hell no give it 20!
    Mystic Mace - 10
    Arcane Mace - 15 (well seem like a priest weapon)
    All other weapons 1handed - 5 and 2handed -10
    Mana Potions? Nerf them by a half!

    Solution to having low mana? Simple - spending points on the right stats and adjusting the fatugue usage and damage of spells. Slightly add to their power and lower primary offensive spell cost.

    Harm/Stone Throw - Both Fatigue - 5 | Damage 10-50/20-50

    And so one and so one.
     
  11. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    1- Tesla Gun really isn't comparable with magick. It is affected by resistances, which means it can have targets it does 0 damage against. Not to mention you need a full electro tree to get that.

    2- Magick itself is already so imba that the fatigue costs are the only thing that slightly balance out the deal - and they're not enough by themselves. In all my Arcanum runs, playing magick was always the easier mode.

    3- If a mage could do all those buffed spells without the aftigue associated with them, they would be even more powerful. What you're asking is basically a Blade Launcher that always does maximum damage at full magickal aptitute with ammo use only as fatigue - and it ignores almost all resistances (never seen an npc that had significant resists against harm). That would be even more imbalanced than melee.

    4- Not to mention that all those blessings are probably hardcoded into the game.

    To truly balance it, you'd need to bring the damage down with fatigue too. And even that won't ensure balance because magic can do all sorts of things with less skillpoints while technologists need much more to advance.
     
  12. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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    Why not simply buff the damage of firearms? Btw. With less Ftigue/Mana and nerfed potions you couldn't just spam spells left and right and watch your fatigue.

    So it's simply relying more on character stats then weapons. Thus the decrease in Fatigue/Mana usage and slight buffs in damage.
     
  13. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    That would equalize. Less mana given, but less mana taken. You're also talking of buffing the damage of spells.

    Buffing the firearms damage would make the game "easy" for "everyone".
     
  14. Nolanoth

    Nolanoth New Member

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    Very slight buffs. About 10 more for certain spells and same for firearms. I'm not sure if it would make the game more easy for everyone. After all there are a lot of opponents that do use guns and spells. And with limited mana and limitaed ways of regenerating it I'm sure everyone would think twice before casting per say Desintegration. That would drain like 1/4 of their total Fatigue instead of 50 out of like 300 or more. Beside if firearms are that much worse I'm sure a buff would do them good. So why not?
     
  15. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    That's good for you, but why did you post it in this thread?

    I played my first Arcanum playthrough with a mage relying only on his own body, no potions, just high heal rate and patience. And it was easy as hell. What you're suggesting is more powerful spells for less mana. "Balanced"? The hell...?
     
  16. Robert St.Clair

    Robert St.Clair New Member

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    After years away from Arcanum, a couple of weeks ago I was inspired to reinstall the game, and play through it again. Upon finishing, I decided I'd take a look and see if any worthwhile mods were out there, which led me to this site. I'd always thought the idea of expanding on the already created gameworld instead of creating totally new mods seemed like a great way to go, so I was very happy to see others had thought along the same lines. As I played through the game, I actually had taken a lot of notes on plots, storylines, and hooks I'd like to see expanded or added, and now after reading both the WIP thread and this thread, I think some of the ideas might be appropriate for one or the other.

    A lot of the ideas were for expansions of smaller quests, or oportunities to fill out some side storylines a little bit further, and several of the ideas, I thought would fit best, for after the void type quests. (I was surprised that some similar ideas came up in the WIP thread.) However, I think that some of these items would be appropriate for this new project as well.

    First, a few opinions.
    1) I'm not a fan of the "second living one" approach. I think it seems contrived, and although it might make some of the scripting easier by reusing many of the same quests, I think the whole thing just seems so artificial.
    2) I think everyone keeps taking the scope of things too big when discussing this project. Just because the Living One visits a location, doesn't mean that a second character would have to go to the same locations. WIP showed that it is very possible to add new locations into the setting. We don't need to use all of the locations (and can use new custom ones like the halfling town I was reading about), and can take things in a different order.

    Crash Site - Why does the new story need to even revolve around the crash site? By making someone a second "living one" I think it definately takes away from the original storyline. Not to mention, I'd be compelled to make Life of Brian jokes about the whole project.

    Shrouded Hills - This is actually my favorite town. I love the old west style of feel to it. However, would it not be possible to start elsewhere completely? Maybe there will be quests to send the player here duing the game, but I certainly don't see it as necessary.

    Dernholm - For the plot I would want to write (which isn't necessarily what this project is about) Durnholm would be the center of the universe. But if the main quest is about the Ogre plot, why do we even need to go here?

    Black Root - For the plot I'd want to focus on if I had my way, Black Root would be a key area. However, for the Ogre plot, I don't see much relevance to it.

    Tarant - As the main city, I think Tarant likely will play a big part no matter what you end up using as the main plot.

    Caladon - This is the second most important city in the game, so probably could play a part in any plot. Definately would be a place of focus if I had my way.

    Ashbury, Stillwater, Roseborough - Most of the out of the way human sites probably aren't necessary to the plot.

    Wheel Clan, Stonecutter Clan, Iron Clan - The Dwarf sites aren't really needed for the ogre plot at all, although I'd probably try to find a way to incorporate one of them (or make a new clan).

    Qintarra, T’sen-Ang - The Elven cities also don't really need to play a part in the overall plot, although for flavor, might be nice to include Quintarra or some new elven outpost.

    Isle of Despair, Thanatos - Most of the island areas probably don't need to be visited.

    Tulla, Vendigroth Ruins, The Void - These would be the first places I'd cut out of a new storyline. They are fairly "unique" places, and lose that if every storyline happens to lead heroes there.

    ----

    So, if the focus of the story focuses on:
    Halfling city from WIP, Taraunt, Dernholm, Caladon, and Ogre Island, does that make things easier? New sites of importance could be added around these, but keeping to those areas makes it so that not as much scale needs to be there, and gives a more manageable scope. Add more detail to a small number of areas instead of spreading things out over a large number of areas.
     
  17. No! Naughty dog!

    No! Naughty dog! New Member

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    I'd been having ideas of a similar nature but I didn't really express them because the discussion was based around a second survivor (Not necessarily another 'Living One') So I was trying to keep to that.

    I think that Tulla should still be included but the quest related parts either replaced, removed or somehow downplayed, the importance of the place for mage characters (while not essential but notable) I feel makes it a little wrong to exclude it entirely, or at least offer an alternative for college mastery

    I agree what you're saying about the scale of it, but very much like the idea of visiting all the locations from a different story perpective.
     
  18. Robert St.Clair

    Robert St.Clair New Member

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    As far as the storyline I think is "epic" enough to focus on, without trampling all over the official storyline...

    I liked the idea of an "after the void" storyline focused on the Cumbrian Civil War. The elements of the story assumed it came after the standard storyline, so some adjustments would be needed for a parallel story.

    The Backstory
    Lianna Pel Dar heads to the Isle of Despair, seeking Maximillian, true and rightful kind of Cumbria. After convincing him of his country's need for his leadership, and the poor rulership of his brother, he agrees to return. Obviously, his return is not welcomed by his brother. Maximillian is forced into hiding in a small town (Shrouded Hills? Blackroot? Halfing village? A new town?), as both sides begin a game of political one upsmanship in preparation for civil war.

    The Mood and Theme
    This module would focus more on politics and intrigue of Arcanum. Although there are definate opportunities and advantages for thieves, mages, technologics, and warriors, social characters are likely to shine above all others, as alliences are made and broken, factions are negotiated with, and individuals are swayed from one side to the other.

    The Major Players
    Dernholm - King Praetor's supporters look to keep him in power and wish to keep stability of the government of Cumbria. Their goal is to keep Cumbria from losing more power, and to crush all support for Maximillian as king.

    The Uprising - Maximillian's supporters are in hiding, but have significant support in overthrowing King Praetor and returning Maximillian to the throne. Although they would like to avoid a violent end, everything seems to be leading to that as the inevitable outcome.

    Taurant - The Industrial Council sees the entire situation as being ripe with opportunities. A civil war in Cumbria would leave them open for a takeover by a unified and powerful Unified Kingdom. To make sure war happens, they run a shadow war to instigate against both sides (framing the other in each case). PC's would have the opportunity to work for Taurant to instigate the war on their behalf, or work against them trying to foil their schemes.

    Caledon - Caledon would like to stay out of the conflict, but as the newest member of the Unified Kingdom, Taurant presures them into getting into the middle of things whether they like it or not. Not only might they be pulled to one side or the other in the Cumbrian war, their loyalty to Taurant will be tested as things progress and they are backed in a corner. Caledon will be the most important faction that could side with one side or the other. One subplot for female PC's to get Caledonian support for either Maximillian or Prator is to mary Prince Auguste Farad. (I envisioned the setup for this actually taking place well before the civil war plotline when Aria's body is discovered, and a high BE/CH female PC having the opportunity to comfort the grieving prince.

    Minor Players
    Thieves Underground - The Thieves Underground of Durnholm didn't take part in the standard story, but that isn't to say they don't exist. Now is the time for them to step forward. Smuggling weapons? Spying on one side or the other? Kidnappings? Blackmailing? Stealing diplomatic letters? No matter who comes out on top, the underground is sure to profit from it. (Since this was meant for more advanced characters, even taking over as the leader of the Underground in Durnholm would be an option. Maybe even taking over in Taraunt or Caladon could make senese after killing/bribing/blackmailing/dominating the former guildmaster of one of these cities.

    Gnome Mercenary - A gnome mercenary (with tie in to the gnomish conspiracy) brings a small army of half ogres to Cumbria, offering to fight for the highest bidder. As the bidding (and profits) go up, he changes sides back and forth, showing a severe lack of loyalty. However some things can be worth more than money, and finding hard evidence of the ogre conspiracy can be used as blackmail to get him in line (and earn his hatred.)

    Molochean Hand - What better place for a guild of assassins to find business. They will be hired to kill key advisors, diplomats, military commanders, and even the leaders on both sides. (Players may find themselves against the hand preventing assassinations, hiring them for duty, or even being the target.)

    Bandits - A group of bandits based in Cumbria find that getting involved with one side or the other can be even more profitable than raiding travellers. They become mercenaries for one side or the other.

    The Knights of Cumbria - Although the knights really aren't a force anymore, these issues may see them rise again. To defende the current or rightful king. (I see the rise of the knightly order as a source for many quests, and it could be another opportunity for a player to actually become the leader of an organization.)

    Blackroot - The people, politicians, and army of Blackroot can be a key to who wins or loses the war.

    Others - Many other individuals or groups may take sides directly or indirectly. A summoner? A mage assassin? Military commanders? The press? The blacksmiths? Farmers (food supply). Pirates (or smugglers.) There are many individuals that can play vital roles on one side or the other depending on how the chips fall.

    Resolution
    A number of endings and possibilities are possible

    1) Maximillian becomes King
    Maximillian gathers enough support to become king, either forcing Prator to surrender, or due to Prator's death. Taurant's plans were stopped, leaving Cumbria as an independent kingdom. One subplot for male players is a marriage with Lianna Pel Dar, with the new king presiding over the mairriage over two of the heros of the war. (Lianna could also be a good NPC companion for Max supporting PC's.)

    2) King Prator is Victorious
    The rebellion is turned away and so are the minions of Taurant. Maximillian is dead, or has seen his rebellion as tearing apart the country and making Cumbria weaker, perhaps supporting Prator in order to fight off Taurant as a unified Cumbria.

    3) Tarant Conquers Cumbria
    Taurants plan has succeeded, and the rival brothers never saw it coming wihen the invasion from the north comes. They are unable to turn back the stronger nation, and were easy pickings, forcibly entering the Unified Kingdom under very poor terms, basically becoming a slave nation.

    4) Player becomes King(Queen)
    The PC played both sides (or the winning side) like a fiddle, setting themself up for a position of power, and then eliminating the ruler. They became the top successor through marriage or supposed loyalty before their doublecross put them in power.

    I actually have a lot more notes detailing sideplots, romance options, quest ideas, NPC's, etc, but I think I've babbled on enough and it's time for me to step down from the podium.
     
  19. rroyo

    rroyo Active Member

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    That's a very good question.

    ------------------------------

    Welcome to the forum, Robert St.Clair!

    Glad to hear some of the ideas in or to be added to my hack caught your eye.

    1) The majority of the people who responded to this thread seemed to want that, so that's the way the story has been evolving.

    2) Keep it simple! Given that I would probably be the one doing the construction work on the new locations - which are very! time-consuming to build - reusing as many of the original ones as possible is a good idea if you want to get a project this size out the door somewhere between two to five years down the road.

    3) The locations.
    The Shrouded Hills/Crash Site area is pretty much a given for a start because the critters in the area are already set up for low-level players. The further away from there you go, the tougher things get.

    As for the others - BTW: The Half-Ogre Conspiracy got delegated to a major side-quest instead of the main game, so.... other than the halfling town (Brandybuck), I completely agree with you on the ones to use.
    I am at a bit of a loss however on how to work Brandybuck into the conspiracy, unless a note from someone inside the conspiracy gets added to the Wolfe Cave.
    Ideas?

    Several of the other orignal places will still see use in the new game, but would need different reasons for going there - however slightly. Tulla. for example, would be the obvious place for mages powerful enough to send you to the Void; Dernholm and Stillwater for side-quests; so forth and so on.

    Also - Just spotted your reply to Naughty Dog.
    I LIKE IT !

    OK folks - Robert just put up a good idea for a main game. Feedback needed.
     
  20. Robert St.Clair

    Robert St.Clair New Member

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    Thanks for the welcome. It was very interesting seeing how much interest this game still had. Really looking forward to installing and trying WIP, but even if it goes no further for me, I've gotten a lot of enjoyment reading the plot ideas out there. Many things were right in line with things I noted to myself with the possibility of tring some modding, and some things were way beyond anything I'd have come up with.

    As you've now seen, I presented an alternate path. We'll see if there is any interest. Of the three main plots out there, I'd rank them as:
    1) Cumbrian Civil War
    2) Ogre Conspiracy
    3) Second Survivor

    I like the 2nd one as a continuing major side plot more than a main plot, but I'm not really a fan of a second survivor at all, since it takes away what's special about the character in the original game.

    I definately agree with that. I don't think a lot of new areas should be developed. From the sounds of the WIP thread, a lot of new content has already been created that could be leveraged for some different locations. My main point was to simplify as well, and the best way to do that is to limit the number of locations everything is dependent on. I also feel the more areas that get reused, the less believable the coincidences get if you are trying to do two parallel adventures.

    I'll admit, I haven't looked a lot at random enounter tables, but I felt picking an alternate starting town could easily still give development opportunities before sending the character out into the dangers of the world. If the halfling town was near Durnholm for example, that could allow for a realatively safe starting area.

    To be honest, I haven't seen where you've placed things to see how to fit things geographically, but if going with the conspiracy as the plot hook:
    1) A guilt ridden half-ogre who learned of his origins (perhaps from his mother, perhaps from seeing more than he should) fled his gnomish masters, ending up living among the halflings. The "giant among the little people" has long been a recluse, but rumors about his ranting when drunk have some of the halflings wondering about whether his stories are true.

    2) A friend of Tyron who has found more evidence of the conspiracy is fleeing from one city to another, and is stopping over in Brandybuck on the way. However, a gnome aware of the conspiracy finds out what he's carrying and poisons him. Before his death, he hands over the cryptic notes (possibly encoded with no key, making finding a translator an early part of the quest) to the PC before falling dead from the poison.

    3) Perhaps the PC's mother (or grandmother? Don't recall when conspiracy should have ended) had been kidnapped and was a victim of the conspiracy. Investigating some old notes from the time leads you to believe a band of halflings were the kidnappers, and you've found your way here. In Brandywine, a powerful hunter's guild is one of the most influencial groups in the city. Although they are publicly known for hunters and trappers of exotic creatures, their origins are as kidnappers and slavers. The first part of the storyline revolves around uncovering the roots of this guild, which leads into finding out they sold their victims to gnomes, leading into the greater conspiracy.

    Using some places when they fit is good. Just don't force areas into the plot just because they are there. And I think the void plot altogether should be avoided.
     
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