Arcanum ownership

Discussion in 'Arcanum 2 Suggestion Forum' started by The Pigeon, Nov 7, 2010.

Remove all ads!
Support Terra-Arcanum:

GOG.com

PayPal - The safer, easier way to pay online!
  1. TheDavisChanger

    TheDavisChanger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,838
    Likes Received:
    10
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Indeed, who-bought-whom.

    I suspected it boiled down to following acquisition histories. Thanks, DarkFool!
     
  2. DarkFool

    DarkFool Nemesis of the Ancients

    Messages:
    3,997
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2005
    Banned.


    This works in 99% of cases, but not all. Say, for example, when Activision acquired whoever it was that owned Troika's IP (Sierra, I think, but am too lazy to look up), an intern at Sierra goes through, and deems a box labeled "Troika" to be rubbish now, since Sierra isn't around anymore. They take that box of documentation, and shred it all. That documentation, it turns out later (as if anyone would notice), just happens to have been all the legal records from Troika, particularly those specifying trademarks, intellectual property, things like that. At that point, nobody -technically- owns Arcanum, or any of the Troika IP. Now, Activision could very definitely make the argument that it's defacto theres (based upon purchases/etc.), and they'd more-or-less be correct. The real difficulty is if they were required to prove it. They couldn't.

    Mind you, that's a very long-shot possibility, but it is technically possible. Especially since Troika went through like 4 owners after closing (again, this number is based off very vague recollections, and my currently being too lazy to wikipedia it).
     
  3. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    14
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    Sentence fragment!
     
  4. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Wow! O_O there have been a lot of replies while i was away. Been doing my honours this year so totally forgot about arcanum.


    Anyone know of a good open source graphics engine (for C++) which supports 3D model animation? The abilities for menus (input boxes, yes/no boxes etc) would be good too.
     
  5. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    An old topic, I knwo, but I never found anyone really showing any good reasoning how the sequel making thing works legally.

    Arcanum is a game whose copyrights probbably belong to activision blizzard or something like that atm. This means they have the following rights:
    Activision blizzard has the right to sell Arcanum, which it does. If any of you are wondering about the "to create derivative works" part, then I found this about derivative works:
    This means that an arcanum sequel could be made because it is an original work. What can't be done is rewrite the code piece by piece and claim it to be your own. If you get copyright protection for this code rewriting, then it could be revoked by legal actions by the owners of the work which your work derives from.

    Now, about the trademark of Arcanum.


    Essentially this means unless they haven't reregistered the trademark of Arcanum, then a sequel could easily be made without any legal boundaries. (EDIT: Apparantly Activision Publishing has renewed the Trademark so the restrictions of the Trademark still stand... :S)

    Now all of this is just 10 mins worth of research. But I guess it has anwsered plenty of questions. Anyone smarter than me is welcome to prove my research wrong.


    Links to the wikipedia articles I quoted from.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonment#Abandonment_of_trademark
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Exclusive_rights
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work#When_does_derivative-work_liability_exist.3F
     
  6. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    @rist9 thanks very much, was interesting to read. I wonder if blizzard will ever make an Arcanum game?
     
  7. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    I hope not. The blizzard universe is a far different universe. It would probbably mess up the whole Arcanum feel. I believe the only reason for keeping the trademark registration alive is because they can, cos they have the money and it would be a big loss if anyone were to make a sequel and not have to get their permission. Permission getting can cost a lot of money. Probbably more than the reregistration of the trademark.
    I'm sure they wont stop any sequel makings but you would need to pay them the money.

    Arcanum, despite being troikas best selling title, doesn't have the commercial success it would need for them to be interested.
    Blizzard is just too money orientated. They have blown the game World of Warcraft so out of hand with the latest expansion. I haven't played it, but frankly, atleast I wanted to play the expansions before this last one. Its cheap enough for them to do the expansion and keep the fanbase in the game, paying the monthly fees... It still generates profit. But the creative values have far been depleted. Now WoW isn't the only title they have, but it shows just how much they are willing to mess up the game if theres profit involved.
    Arcanums value is not in any way commercial. Even though its troikas most sold title.
    I just plain hope they won't do a sequel. Even though I love both game universes, they don't mix well in my mind...

    I hope this text isn't too ranty. ^^
     
  8. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    You're looking at it from a WoW persepctive. I haven't played wow, but I have played Diablo, Starcraft and the Warcraft RTS, all of which were good. Blizzard could make a very good non-mmo with a world, characters, gameplay and music score that I like.

    Wow is a cash cow, but I don't see them making Arcanum 2 as a cash cow at all.
     
  9. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    I have played Warcraft 3 and Diablo aswell. Awesome games, but still a very different universe. I was just making a point on how far they are willing to go for the money. That proves they care about money a lot. Which means Arcanum wont be on their list cos it has too little money in it. Frankly, I just think the arcanum universe is too different from the whole Blizzard universe. They could do a decent job, considering that one of the Arcanum makers is involved in the making of Diablo 3, but I just don't think that any game studio could do justice to Arcanum. Only a team led by the original makers could do it justice.
    I would rather see a few faily fanmade sequels than an over the top Blizzard made sequel. The feel of Arcanum is just so very delicate and hard to recreate by anyone else. Only the team led by Tim Cain could do this I guess...
     
  10. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    I see what you mean, but I think Blizzard, if they did pursue it, would take the time to do it right. Arcanum has a very distinct style. If they played through the game as both tech and magical and taked to the Original developers, I think they could do it.

    Although... I would like the original developers to do it. I don't want any time skips, just a continuation of the world with game play fixes, graphics update and more story.
     
  11. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    There are plenty of Fan projects aimed on doing just that.
    I've only looked into ArcanumAlive. But there are plenty of projects like that one.
    ArcanumAlive aims to fix the gameplay issues the original had. The game engine will be totally renewed and made to house better graphics and colouration and lots more. Arcanums visuals had many issues.
    In all honesty though, I don't think the project is very promising. It is all being done by one person. Which is very limiting. I am willing to pinch in on that project with music creation, but since the project doesn't currenly have a clear horizon for being completed, then I don't see a reason to participate actively just yet.
    Although I do encourage you, if you have any programming experience or the willingness to gain some, then look into this. I guess any kind of help would be needed. Even a 5% imput onto the whole would help a whole lot.

    Anyway, currently I think the best bet for anykind of fixed sequel or whatever would be a fanmade. Even though anykind of fanmade project has pretty low organisation for the people who participate do it for free and to participate in such a project would require a leap of faith in essence. You may end up wasting your own time a lot...
     
  12. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    I know how to program in Java and C++, but I don't know what this guy might need coding wise.
     
  13. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Just go ahead and ask em. I'm sure your help would be much appericated. It might even make me want to participate more and get even more people involved. I have a friend who might want to look into gamemaking... Essentially I myself am interested in it but I'm thinking I should learn some basics before getting any responsibilities...
     
  14. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    If you want to make as well as design, you need to know C++. Microsoft as a free version of Microsoft Visual Studio which should have everything you need. You should also look for some programming tutorials on the net to teach you what the bits of code are that you'll be putting together to write the game.

    It also helps having an existing game engine in some form like Irrlicht or something. You gotta have something that can create a window and display stuff (which I do) as well as load 3D models, character animations and sound. If the game engine can do this, then what you need to think about is game logic.

    Making games is fun, but you need a plan. What you want your game to do, the core amount of stuff you want to put in before you start giving the player choice, etc. It will, at the very very least, be an enormous amount of work. But once you've gotten started and can keep going you'll be creating te game you want to play. Just be sure to test it a lot with other players. It's easy to point out flaws in someone else's game, but other people always behave in some way which you don't expect. You also want to make sure you've tested it your self alot before if gets to them, to make it's the game you want to play and plays like you pictured it in your head at the begining.

    I was actually starting on a game a few weeks ago but then got distracted and forgot about it :S I should probably do some of that, will help rebuild some of my programming and games knowledge and I might even be able to use it in the future to help that guy. Who knows
     
  15. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    I recently procured the Gamebryo lightspeed and Maya. Gonna try em out and see what happens. I've heard Gamebryo doesn't support visual studio. Plus I don't really think I want to get into C++ just yet. Maybe I'll check it out someday, but it would be wise to take this step by step. I'm gonna look into Maya first and then start figuring out stuff as I go along from there.
     
  16. The Pigeon

    The Pigeon Member

    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    5
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Gamebyro? Don't know that one. I'm using a windows pc.

    If you do use a platform that can support it, C++ isn't hard to do and once you've learnt it, Java and C# are pretty much the same with slight differences as is, well almost any object orientated language.

    I haven't used Maya myself but I hear it's similar to 3DS Max which I used throughout my degree. I only wish Autodesk gave out student or non-professional prices for their products. I don't want to spend $5000+ initially then $1000+ each year for no product improvement :S
     
  17. rist9

    rist9 New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Gamebryo Lightspeed would be a gamemaking engine...^^ not an OS. Gamebryo was used to make for example, skyrim or civ 4/5...

    And I wouldn't even ever pay that kind of money unless I would require to get my licensing together to release the game or something like that. But for now its just a dabble in that area. Nothing clearly formed.
    Which is why I said "procured" which has a shady meaning to it.
     
  18. Charonte

    Charonte Member

    Messages:
    899
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2009
    C++ is hard. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

    It might be easy learn the basics but getting it right is a whole other kettle of fish. As with all things -- if you are going to do something do it properly. Half assing it will only come back and bite you later. If one if my employees came forward with a half written memory leaking POS I would beat them bloody.

    My advice to you -- if you are still pursuing this -- would be to look at something like Python if you really want to start from scratch or something like FIFE if you are happy to modify another project.

    I would also stay the hell away from pirate software for any project that could be released to the public; even just for testing. Get used to working with free tools. They will do everything you need them to and then some.

    GIMP is my image editor of choice instead of Photoshop.
    Blender and Wings3D are popular model editors.
    NetBeans, Ecllipse, Visual Studio Express, Aptana are good IDE's you can use.
     
  19. zentaifan

    zentaifan New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Arcanum's combat design has received criticism, with reviews stating that it is poorly balanced,
     
  20. NamelessOne

    NamelessOne New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Re:

    Probably because it is true. Mages and melee are way too hardcore. Arcanum was (and is) one of best RPGs ever made in terms of story, quest design and setting, but honestly the combat of it feels like it was designed some third-party contractor rather than makers of game. Some of the crazy changes to combat (such as lack reloading, lack of different ammo) in relation to Fallout aren't very Black Isle like, can't understand why would they want to go backwards in terms of combat design knowing that they most likely still had source code of Fallout, since Arcanum engine seems so similiar to Fallout engine. It is strange really, considering FO1&2 had solid and fun combat, although it was slow and somewhat boring when facing masses of enemies. I'd bet the game would have sold more (somewhat, it's not like RPGs ever sell well, unless they're sex or hiking simulators) and have much larger cult-following if they would have ported combat directly from Fallout, even if it was TB-only and they would have dropped SPECIAL because of license reasons.

    It's not something that couldn't be easily fixed though. If I had skills to to do an Arcanum engine rewrite, I would add reloading, multiple ammo types for both bows and guns inc. armor-piercing, possibility for weapons to throw people back, meaningful called shots (and limb damage), rework damage resistances in style of Fallout and probably rework overall combat into Fallout-style turn-based with possible option for realtime which would identical to turn based ala FoT-style (I know FoT was badly done JA-clone, but it did RT-combat with Fallout-system quite well). I might try that when OpenArcanum is released and scripting of it is simple enough for me, but for now I focus on just editing weapons of original.
     
Our Host!