One weird trick that will drive Smuel's mom crazy

Kudos to Japes for keeping his cool after being called a "thoughtless prick" and without a hint of sarcasm in his last post trying to resolve the issue. It's level-headedness you rarely see on the internet. Moving on...

It was pretty much as arbitrary as the stab you made tying political problems in Japes' country to his actions. I found it fairly meaningless and not really contributory to the conversation at hand, but I get it - it's people in positions of power with Japes' obviously sincere disgusting misogynist attitude that are the ruin of civilised society. I'm sure Japes is literally right now squatting bare-assed above the glass ceiling, taking such a monumental dump all over it that the sheer weight of his waste is making it drop a few centimetres lower.

Many people inherently like to make jokes on sore and difficult subjects not to contribute to that mindset but to poke fun at the absurdity and cruelty of those attitudes when they are sincerely held. Personally I don't think there's any subject that's too bad to make a joke on, so long as it's done with that mindset in hand. It's called dark humour, I didn't really think I would need to explain this concept to a grown man but there you go.

When Sickipedia was a thing (the website has been down for some months now) I took them to task about their racist humour - as there you have a website peddling humour and you don't know who's coming across it (likely a lot of kids and impressionable people). While I think humour about racism (as in, on the topic of but not directly racist) can be funny, and even jokes that are flat out racist can be funny so long as they're done so strongly and wittily that the parody of sincere racism is obvious, there was a very high proportion of moronic racist jokes on that website that were completely shit and were also incredibly popular - and I for one didn't think that was right.

The point I'm making here is you need to know when to pick your battles. I mean I actually made a long and protracted stand in a place where it mattered and tried to cut to the very heart of what is funny and what isn't and when it can be potentially damaging to make some jokes, you take your stand on an obscure internet forum where the joke Japes was making was obvious parody to begin with and you spout all your bullshit in a context where it was completely and utterly pointless. Well done you.

Besides, in terms of jokes, there's no known academic causality between making jokes on inappropriate topics and people literally being converted to a mindset. When people do make sincere racist/sexist/homophobic jokes in a setting where those attitudes are entrenched, they're more a flag for the problems of that subgroup rather than a real contributor. Unlike you, I actually did proper research on this.

I have to say, me and ytzk already had this discussion over PM some time back - and his take on all this was far more insightful, interesting and engaging than any of your impotent verbose liberal-guilt laden childlike fucking whining. I actually think you're damaging to activism on these issues, you literally give people who do try and effect appropriate and lasting change a bad name because you bring it up where there wasn't a place for it and that just encourages people to roll their eyes and ignore the serious issue you're trying to discuss. You're literally making people switch off to proper discourse on the issue.

I got a lot more cutting than I meant to there, but I did say I was tired of this shit.

PS Here's one of the most inappropriate jokes I've ever made, far worse than any of what Japes mentioned:

"I was disgusted to hear a man on the bus tell a coworker, 'You are too ugly to be raped.'

Horrified by his hateful misogynistic jibe and wanting to put right centuries of deplorable inequality caused by men everywhere, I set out to prove him wrong."

PPS I literally used the word "literally" too many times in that post, like literally.

 

Sorry I'm late to the party. Is Wayne being a white knight as usual?

 

Zanza, casually stirring the pot with calculated efficiency. As usual.

 

You're right, there is a more appropriate buzzword that more accurately reduces your reaction.

So it is because this stereotype exists and Jungle Japes used it that you and people like you are powerless to resist being triggered by it and you must speak out against it lest women everywhere are obliterated by the crushing hardship of being so well provided for that they have the leisure of reading romance novels. Give me a break.

It's definitely possible, but I hold it as unlikely that you went through the mental rigors of calculating that a literate male (+1) implying that men are illiterate (-1) washes itself out (=0) so you don't have to address it and can focus on rallying behind all of the oppressed housewives as you were going to do anyway.

Yet you opted for the character attack of levying sexism against Jungle Japes rather than tackle his flawed logic. Fucking. Illogical. Captain.

What an apologetic bitch.

Cavalry's here.

 

I'm not sure how far you read before you got onto your 'England vs Ireland' stuff; but yeah, I don't think Japes decides the laws on paid maternity leave in America; it's simply an issue that pisses me off, something I found out recently, and is one of the reasons I could never imagine living in America for good. And I actually found it relevant to the topic because it was something you may have overlooked in your previous post which mentioned maternity leave as if it was all created equal.

I'm not really sure why you get to decide the circumstances in which it's okay to poke fun at something—especially when some of the issues behind this stuff aren't necessarily things you've directly experienced (assuming you're a guy) and might not fully understand the depths of (I certainly don't—how could I?). As far as 'dark humour' goes (thanks for the lesson, by the way: super helpful and constructive), from what I've seen it makes a difference to people who tells the joke; that's why no-one makes a fuss if we call each other Paddies and Micks in Ireland, but it'd be super fucking weird if you started doing it on this forum, even if you were 'just joking'. So there's that to consider, which is why I don't think it's an issue of how 'PC' someone is rather than how much of an asshole they want to be. If you know it might be a sensitive issue for someone—especially when that issue relates to oppression and you are/would have been on the privileged side of the divide—is it worth it? For example:

* * *

Wow, you sound swell; but again, amid all your patting yourself on the back, you might be aware that there are stances, mindsets and opinions other than your own, and you don't have a monopoly on making decisions regarding what and where 'really' matters. You might recall that Japes' original post asked for thoughts; and so I expressed mine.

Wow, you sound smart; but did your research uncover anything about how unchallenged attitudes, jokes, etc. like this often congeal into the norm on the basis of being silently endured? Again, well done on reading a couple of articles or whatever, but don't you agree that there's at least room to challenge and question these potentially offensive comments, especially if some of us have seen, in our own lives, the good and harm of both sides of the equation? I guess my stance is based on my real life and the people in it, rather than the Journal of Academic Causality, and so your experience may be different; but you seem disturbingly quick to defend jokes like the above, and I wonder if that quickness came before or after your research.

Good for ytzk, I guess, that his view is 'better', according to the standard you've set. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of your comment here is simply just an emotive response because you dislike the way I went about this (were your PMs 'a place where it mattered' rather than 'an obscure internet forum'? I guess you determined that there was 'a place for it' there, while apparently this thread doesn't count); but anyway, I'll say once more that you aren't the judge of the motivations and value behind people's approaches to this, and you don't really get to designate where and when people can voice their opinions about it. Yes, maybe I'm finding it difficult to keep completely detached and civil about an issue I feel strongly about and which affects a lot of people in my life negatively (aren't you?); but I don't know if the solution is to respond 'fuck you; what you have to say is garbage'.

Meh.

 

For starters I couldn't give a shit about Ireland, or any country any of you live in. I'm not on an England vs. Any Country side of anything. What irritated me was that you were associating Japes with a national negative issue to attempt to lend credence to you argument. It's a nice tactic that may wash with people easily swayed by hot button issues, but it's ultimately diversionary and cheap. Personally I like logic to be behind arguments, not just anything I can drudge up to provoke a reaction.

I decide because it's my sense of humour, it's what I find funny and how I choose to lessen the world's evil and its tragedies. I don't particularly care if people are sensitive to what I joke about, just like I'm not sensitive to people poking fun at my particular mental illness or anything that personally effects me in a negative way. People should start acting like adults and not let other people's words defeat them at every turn. When did the mass public lose a spine and start complaining about every little thing that upsets them, instead of confronting it or dealing with it and living life? If you want to be a serial apologist and champion of justice then go for it, but personally I don't care for it.

Besides don't you think I pitch my humour at like minded people so no one gets upset, just like I weigh and measure everything I say in the given context before I say it. I know that not everyone is likeminded and shares in my cynical sense of humour, from your stance it seems like you think I go up to people who have suffered and stick the knife in. Tragedy isn't funny, however making light of it with people who don't want to stare at all the misery around them and let it eat away at them is a perfectly normal way of coping with the world.

Your attitude here, the kind of person you're implying I am, is wholly wrong. I find your assumptions about me and my life and my privilege a mile off the mark and insulting, you have no idea who I am.

Okay so what apart from taking people to task on a low profile forum have you done? I'm genuinely interested, if efforts I make aren't good enough for your criteria. Tell us all wayne, tell us all how we can do our bit and what tangible effect it has on the world.

So baseless conjecture and personal opinion is better than genuine research? You certainly have sold me, I bow to your experience of life on the mean streets of Cambridge. My quickness came before, because I appreciate people can have different outlooks on life and different senses of humour. I don't agree with other people's outlooks, I do respect their right to have them so long as the aren't causing harm. I don't believe jokes do cause harm in the way you believe they are, what you're talking about is genuine malice framed as a "joke" to subjugate people - which none of us were doing here.

If someone has something genuinely hateful to say to someone I'd be the first to take a stand and throw myself in harms way. If people want to make a joke at my expense, then no I don't care. Life can be hard, people should maybe adjust to that rather than constantly looking to everyone else to make their situation better.

As I said, I grew a fucking spine. I terribly sorry that the people around you get offended if people sneeze in their general direction, but I would never be in their face deriding them as somehow you think I would be so I don't see what the problem is. Why don't you actually go and deal with whatever real issue affected them so badly instead of prattling on a forum about what soulless human beings we all are? Isn't that a more effective use of your time, unless it really is that one of your friends was called a fat housewife and it incontrovertibly ruined their life.

If you like championing causes to validate yourself and your place in the world, then fine. I'll settle on being a decent person and tangibly helping people while still making unpleasant jokes from time to time.

I for one remember that great time when you ridiculed Gross for being schizophrenic, you hypocritical fucking pissant. I guess that makes your moral barometer one we should all swear by. I can't muster words for my contempt for people like you.

 

Ah, the old tu quoque: 'I've observed you being imperfect, therefore anything you have to say couldn't make sense!' I guess your like for 'logic to be behind arguments' slipped a little there, along with your memory, since I explained at the time that I didn't know he was schizophrenic. But yeah, you're right: I was wrong. I guess people fuck up sometimes, and you and others were right to call me out. But does that make it easier for you to ignore the things people like me have to say that diverge from your opinion? Should it? Because you've written a lot above, but as far as I can tell, much of it boils down to these little personal comments mixed in with some 'I'm okay with shit like this; why isn't everyone me?' I'm not really sure what you think I was implying about you, beyond assuming that you were a guy and might not have had an identical experience of life as a woman who has faced women's issues; but yeah I don't pretend to know what you get up to in your everyday life. Instead, I'm just asking you to consider whether or not infantilizing people (who, in your words, 'should start acting like adults'—viz., like you) and trivializing their views (like the people around me who, you think, 'get offended if people sneeze in their general direction') is really the right course of action. I get the whole 'I don't particularly care if people are sensitive to what I joke about' thing; but maybe you should, sometimes. Or, at least, maybe you should be sensitive to the fact that yours isn't the only point of view in the world, and maybe other people have experience of things and know stuff that you don't; and maybe trying to understand this instead of dismissing people who suggest it as 'hypocritical fucking pissants' might be something to think about.

 

Well yes, I think your moronic cruelty whether you did or didn't realise he was schizophrenic thoroughly undermines your credibility as a person whose attitudes I give even a little bit of a care for or as an authority on a subject like morality of humour. Do you see me doing that here, ever? When I'm aggressive and cruel it's of a conscious effort, however you succeeded in doing worse casually without even realising it. But oh yes, jokes are the problem - not people like you who are so thoroughly unconscientious that they can be malicious without even trying to.

I can just as easily come back with, "Does that make it easier for you to ignore the things they have to say that diverge from your opinion? Should it?" Apart from conjecture, you haven't given me a shred of anything solid that what I'm doing is an issue. Present me with how my attitude is causing harm and I'll change. You're so quick to say my viewpoint is wrong, without even considering that your attack on other people may be the issue here.

I guess maybe I should be casually malicious like you are, then I'd be a good person. I mean really, when I can achieve the morality of you or 50 Cent, then I'll be happy.

Of course I do, everything I ever say or do I frame against what particular reaction I think I'm going to get from someone. If I'm going to upset someone and I don't want to do that, which is every time unless I speaking to someone of your fine caliber, I won't say it. I take care to share my humour with likeminded people, and be as nice as possible to the rest.

But you're right, it's people just like me ruining the fucking world. You know, people like me have published scientific literature into providing better cancer treatments for people and who help out on mental health forums and are taking racists and the prejudiced to task on the internet and in actual life. I guess what I should be doing with my sweet time is ridiculing people who are different to me, just like you fucking do.

And yeah, when you lump that kind of humour in with racist humour, etc. it seems like you are assuming that a guy like me is also a casual racist. That's what I think you were implying.

The world is tough, people aren't nice, people should develop a thicker skin unless they're lucky enough to never have someone be terrible to them. I try to be nice to people in life, but I don't have much sympathy for people who get overly caught up in the hurtful words of others. There's many, many more genuine things to be upset about. You talk about privilege, if all you and your friends have to worry about is the mean words of bad men, you are the ones who are privileged.

I stated plainly that I appreciate people have different viewpoints, I'm quite happy for someone to be a card carrying racist in their heart just so long as don't inflict harm on that race and they don't spread their mindset to others that would do so. I'm fine for people to be paedophiles, so long as they don't touch kids or view material that lead to exploitation of a child.

I think you're the narrow-minded one here. You really aren't willing to think my viewpoint is accurate or accept it, however I wholeheartedly accept yours and understand its born from a place of wanting to prevent harm to people or at least wanting to appear to others that's how you are. I simply don't believe jokes cause these problems, and I did actually bother to chase up literature on the subject to see if there is a trace of this being a problem and educating myself on the issues. My opinion remains the same.

 

Not really sure what I'm meant to do to stop you making viciously-worded personal attacks to further your argument; I guess you've never done something wrong and then regretted it. But anyway, I'm just trying to express my view on the matter. Maybe, in the end, all it comes down to is the fact that I see people get upset and angry at these sorts of jokes, whether that was the joke-maker's intention or not; and for me, not provoking anger and sadness—especially when it comes from a place of oppression—is more important than making jokes I wouldn't really have found funny in the first place. I appreciate that you think what you think; but I do disagree with dismissing people's reactions by suggesting a blanket stiff-upper-lip cure that's supposed to fit all shapes and sizes (especially when this suggestion comes in the form of nasty berating like yours above). That's what I find offensive about it all: my perception (because maybe it is just my perception) of an unwillingness to treat people's reactions as meaningful, legitimate, or even sincere. Because when I treat something as meaningful, legitimate, and sincere, I don't just tell the person to forget about it, the world is hard, toughen up, don't get upset, it's just a joke. Maybe that's just me. I understand what you're saying, and I don't think you're 'wrong'; maybe some people (including me) have become hyper-sensitive to these things. But I also don't find it constructive to just carry on with business as usual, hoping people get over it if you just leave them to it; and I also don't think this approach will dampen or ameliorate any hyper-sensitivity, build any bridges, or resolve any perceived social slights. Maybe you feel differently. Anyhow, to be honest, I'm not really up for any more unnecessarily hate-filled and scornful responses like your earlier ones, no matter how you justify them to yourself and others; so I think that's it from me, lads.

 

Okay so I have a friend who runs this thing called the message, 'men ending slurs and sexist attitudes in the gaming environment'.

He tells other guys to stop being jerks, and women come and thank him in tears, because it is a big deal to them.

I can assume that if there were any women left in this community then they'd be grateful to WS for making any kind of stand. Sadly I think the last girl left months ago.

Frankly I burnt out all my "Jesus Fuck you can't say that shit" circuits on Zanza.

So, I'm not saying you're barking up the wrong tree, exactly, but you're probably fighting a losing battle.

 

I'll just leave this here:
Relevant article
but I doubt it will be read past the title and probably dismissed out of hand.
But then what do I know. I'm just a white male of European decent raised in America with past ties and experience in law enforcement and the military so my opinions mean exactly shit.

 

I think you're entirely off the reservation with the point you're trying to make.

People saying insensitive things to people, particularly sexist jokes for the point of manly posturing in a mixed gender group setting, obviously isn't right. People sharing those same jokes in an ironic sense amongst likeminded people for a bit of levity and to blow off steam is perfectly fine. If you're telling us that, "You know guys, saying sexist things to women upsets them," well thanks very much for the condescending point you were trying to make.

The real issue here is just flat out sexism, and not people making sexist jokes, and from what you were saying you seem to be implying that men lack the mental faculty to realise that sexist jokes can contextually be sexist depending on your audience. I guess you're right, I'm sure none of us realised that years ago - it really did take you coming down off your cloud to get that through because we're all just a bunch of un-empathetic husks who couldn't possibly come to that conclusion ourselves. And yeah, given your past deeds on the forum, I find lessons in tact and decorum about when you should and shouldn't say something extremely rich coming from you.

Jimmy Carr, a comedian known for these kind of jokes (I'm sure you know who he is, but not everyone might), has said if you don't enjoy his humour don't go to his shows. He gets people paying the ticket price, only to lambast him for the jokes, but the point is they paid the ticket price in the first place. Our humour has been shared in a context where other people can enjoy it, and it isn't being inflicted on anyone who wouldn't. I don't think anyone here says insensitive sexist jokes to people it might upset because then it's not really a joke, it's just a sexist slur.

As I repeatedly mention, there's no proof jokes like this contribute to a sexist culture - even if they did here they were shared among people who understand it's joke and not a treatise on how to talk to women, unlike a more impressionable audience. No harm was done here, none of us read what Japes had put and thought, "Ha yeah, I'm going go out and call a woman fat. While I'm at, I'll punch her in the face." What, do you really think someone will read that and it will magically transmute them into a sexist? You really think that external jokes people hear on places like the internet change people into rampant sexists, rather than sexism framed as "jokes" or just plain ol' sexism touted by their social circle whom they actually value the opinion of? Because I know when I watch a comedian like Jimmy Carr, I think to myself, "Well he's talking about paedophilia like it's great fun, maybe I should give that a try." I'm really curious to know what additional people that weren't raised in a sexist environment you think are converted to sexism on the basis of hearing a joke that was intended for an audience who realise it's farcical and they take it as a genuine way to treat women, you really think that sexist jokes have that kind of earth-shattering negative power to corrupt people's mindset if it wasn't corrupted already? If one of these jokes is told in a group a guys and when of them doesn't really get that it's a joke that take it seriously, then the problem of that guy lacking the capacity to realise it's a not a good way to relate to women was already there in the first place - the joke did not precipitate that.

For the record I know plenty of women who do find this kind of humour funny, and I also know plenty of men who don't. I find it's just as inconsiderate to tell men that don't share in my sense of humour jokes that might upset them as women. But hey, you have to make special dispensation and take even greater care when telling sexist jokes around women it might upset than around men because that's the definition of equality and it's important to be especially sensitive to women and women's issues instead of just being sensitive to the outlook of any person you meet. I find how you have constantly phrased your posts to be about women's thoughts and feelings, instead of anyone's thoughts and feelings who finds the sheer idiocy that is sexism offensive, quite telling.

And yes, I do maintain people should develop a thicker skin. I'm obviously conscientious about what I say to people, but plenty of people aren't, and yes any shape or form of sexist comments made against someone should be challenged and I'm not saying anyone should turn a blind eye to it or forget about it like you're telling me I am - but rather people can't just let every mean thing that's said to them ruin their life. I find that complete lack of strength of character pathetic, as I do anyone who always looks to others to come to their defence and save them. But you know, cheers for telling me I believe sexism should just go unchecked and women should just get over it.

As I said there's a time and a place to actually challenge sexist attitudes, this was not the time nor the place. I don't think anyone around here genuinely holds sexist attitudes, or at least if they do they keep them under wraps so there isn't anything tangible to be upset about. Coming here and saying, "You know sexist jokes = sexism contextually and sexism is bad," was monumentally condescending and blatantly unnecessary. But you're right, I'm sure everything you've done here was just as worthwhile as me trying to get a site that encouraged casual and potentially damaging racism to reconsider what they were putting out there - because obviously we all obviously go around punching women in the ovaries, poisoning the minds of the youth by saying that women are meat and get an ass grab in whenever possible.

What I'm trying to say is, I think you're a complete dick.

 

I'm not sure what's going on but I'm sensing a lot of aggression.

I think if we all sat down together in person and considered things we could agree on rules for a chainsaw fight and settle this.

Or are we gonna continue reading and writing about dicks like a bunch of women?

 

Love you guys

 

Is this a well-crafted troll or simply terrible timing?

Yeah, well, there would be a lot more aggression but wayne-scales took the wind out of my sails by ignoring me. There really isn't anybody to fight with until Zanza posts again.

I buy this. It's naïve to think that sexist comments have zero impact. Sexism is a negative force but that shouldn't take it off of the table as an object of humor and I think the value added in making light of sexism outweighs the risks of its subliminal effects.

 

It's always annoying to come late to an interesting thread and feel that, although you have strong opinions on the subject, you don't really have much to contribute except crying agree or disagree. Obviously this is a contentious subject, while interesting and debate worthy ideas are being tossed around they are sadly (but understandably) diluted into a squalid compound of bitterness and sarcasm.

Yes, you should be able to joke about any subject. And yes, so called dark humour ridiculing the abundance of foulness that can be found in every corner of the world can be bloody hilarious and is greatly appreciated. And yes, people (often leaning to the left), to whom it's been fashionable as of late to refer to as “social justice warriors”, have from time to time made unfortunate and uneducated accusations. I remember the “Je (ne) suis Charlie Hebdo” campaigns where there were many people (both left and right leaning) giving support to both sides, many for merely ill informed reasons others for reasons utterly horrific. In an effort to not derail the discussion I'll leave it at that, but I'd gladly follow up on these statements as there are multiple parallels to be drawn to discussion at hand. (And yes, I should really consider new ways to begin sentences.)

As has been stated multiple times in this thread, it's wise to consider context and general opinion before making “inappropriate” jokes. Poking fun at child molestation could certainly be considered offensive by victims of the sort, but is generally a rather safe version of dark humour. I can only assume that the consensus of child molestation being a fairly bad thing to be the reason for this. You can safely joke about it and not be suspected of having a basement full of saucy little morsels. This is not the case when joking about misogyny or racism, these are prevalent notions which need to be combated daily. That's not to say that you can't joke about it, but it raises the bar on the required standard of the joke in question as the line between joking about misogyny and making a misogynistic joke is blurred. I also feel that dark humour and is often used as a shield beneath which you can spout out whatever verbal manure into the midden that is free speech.

I generally don't like writing too long posts as often only parts of them are taken in. It's often difficult to respond to them as well. With that said, I'd wager that it's fairly difficult to either prove or disprove any causality between inappropriate jokes and festering racism or misogyny much due to the blurred lines mentioned above. It's true that they're likely a symptom rather than a cause but since jokes about abominable shit are hard to tell from abominable jokes it's often worthwhile to challenge the jokes in question. And when a fairly homogeneous group are joking about minorities it's often quite difficult for a member of the minority in question to step up and do so. And as ytzk stated there are few, if any, women left here.

Although gender is admittedly difficult to ascertain on internet forums. Especially with teases as big as TDC.

 

I'd say Ruda's comments were fairly insightful, I approve.

That's how I argue best, baby. I understand that being a dick isn't a great way to be taken seriously or for people to weigh your arguments as valid, but after trying to defuse things slightly and still getting rude responses I couldn't be bothered to be civil anymore. I know, I am a massive dick. Maybe even a massive complete dick.

To get to the point that you and TDC raise, personally I don't believe in jokes subliminally affecting people's mindset from exposure - which I think I've made clear already. However to elaborate, people do make jokes about paedophilia all the time, but I don't think anyone would argue that those jokes don't contribute towards people's propensity towards paedophilia. So why is it any different when it comes to sexism, unless there's a belief that sexism is some sort of inherent part of human nature and we must therefore resist it? I really don't believe it is, and so I find it beyond belief that jokes sway people in such a way - jokes are inherently not meant to be taken seriously and so I think negative attitudes in an individual exist before they are told bad jokes on the same subject, and seeing as they're already of that mindset I don't think the joke really exacerbates anything.

Pretty much everything else you said I agree upon, if someone is actively making someone uncomfortable in a social setting then they should be held accountable for that - either by the minority in question or better by someone else standing up for them - because by that point it's not really a joke anymore. The point was though, this isn't one of those settings, nor even one where what we say is subliminally affecting anyone - I think we're all past an age now to be properly impressionable. These things do need to be raised when they are a problem, not just all the time when anyone even gets a sniff of something inappropriate regardless of the context and they choose that moment to imply that the other individual has damagingly sexist attitudes or that they're ignorantly casually sexist and therefore upsetting people all the time, or that they are poisoning people's minds.

Besides, as far as I have seen even when there was women members active, this place was always extremely inappropriate. It seems a bit ludicrous to come here and get overly het up about the issue when you know for a fact the place has a history of being all about exactly that. I mean, just look at this.

 

I'd like to just add, as almost an aside but maybe not quite, that I think people's fervour on topics like this can overtake their arguments a bit, making the whole thing devolve into raging and mudslinging. To be clear: it's not about who's 'better' than whom, which includes attacking the person rather than their arguments and using this to try to back up your view (not that a lot of us—including me—aren't guilty of that). The last few comments by Jojobobo (barring maybe one exception at the end), Ruda, and TDC obviously don't fall into this category, and are a lot more lucid and, I think, reasonable than some of the earlier posts, including mine. But when this sort of poisonous atmosphere rears its head or even becomes the norm—especially when it happens on a gaming forum in the midst of an issue relating to sexism (perceived or otherwise)—it not only proves super unhelpful while propagating gamer-stereotypes among those involved in the discussion, it gives the same impression to anybody who happens to visit the forum (because don't forget that this is a public forum, and not only the members have access to the posts in it), possibly even dissuading new members or driving away existing ones. I agree with a lot of what Ruda said, disagree with a lot of what Jojobobo said, and have mixed feelings about what TDC said; but no-one's going to get anywhere if the conversation focuses around what assholes we are, tries to stifle opinions instead of engaging them, and just generally turns into a vicious sarcasm-fest (and yep, I'm including myself here). So that or chainsaws at the ready, I guess.

 

To be honest, I was originally going to make a thread about this some months back, particularly after ytzk and I had my discussion (but also due to related stuff with Grakelin, etc.) in a calm and reasonable manner. Then, as the OP, it's much easier to take a back seat - and you obviously try and represent both sides in a discussion thread in the first place. But ultimately I decided I've clogged this forum way too much with my thoughts and opinions, and I can't be bothered to lecture people entirely unsolicited anymore, even if I wouldn't have taken that tact in such a thread.

In any case, yes the initial flaming completely shut down all sense here, and I feel like such an aggressive response did solicit an opinion on a matter I feel strongly about and is worthy of discussion. Everything got way off track when it was decided that my previous attempts to educate myself on a topic was apparently a bad thing - I guess genuine attempts at education and thoughtfulness on a topic are somehow wrong, even though I did attempt to review any relevant literature at the time I bothered to look and not just that which reaffirmed my own opinion. Besides, let's face it, no one is ever going to publish a paper saying, "Sexist jokes definitely don't cause societal harm, it's a fact." What I did find in literature was people looking for these negative correlations, because of course that is the more interesting story to tell and one that both academia and the general public can get behind, and not really finding anything concrete or substantial. I was a couple of years ago when I think I looked into this, if anyone has looked into it more recently I would be genuinely interested.

Further there was the assumption that me, and everyone else, had never bothered to consider these issues at all, or take an interest in them - or even evaluate whether humour can cause harm. Overall it was all extremely patronising from the off, and I took a large offence to that, and I couldn't really be bothered to handle the topic in an extremely rational or sensible manner because it was never broached in that way in the first place. Why should I have react phlegmatically to rude caustic behaviour when I have to deal with that from douchey superiors at work and from the general horrid masses enough already? If people are rude, I don't believe other people are obligated to act civilly - I don't owe rude arseholes anything, regardless of how entitled they think they are to presume it's okay to act like that in the first place.

 

A second thing I'd point add is that this fervour can also entrench massive polarization, and that in turn can cause people to (unintentionally) misread or (unintentionally) misrepresent the arguments put to them, and/or cause the person making those arguments to potentially overstate them. I never tried to imply that 'genuine attempts at education and thoughtfulness on a topic are somehow wrong' (would anybody? I'm not sure why you felt the need to say this); and I didn't assume that no-one had 'bothered to consider these issues at all, or take an interest in them'. In terms of the first thing, all I really meant is that I've seen it cause 'harm' in my personal life, regardless of what some academic journal has concluded; obviously it all depends on what you call harm, and I definitely do not limit my definition to inspiring people to 'convert' to sexism or anything like that. I don't know what counted as 'concrete or substantial' in these studies, or who undertook them and why, how they were funded, etc.; all I know is that I've seen this stuff cause what I and others regard as unnecessary hurt and harm in everyday life, and that's enough for me to not like it.

As for your last paragraph, I think still you should be nice or at least neutral anyway.