Voults of folly Forum! The post on homosexuals in Arcanum.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Supreme Being had an inferiority complex?

 

Again, for a non-believer, you make perfect sense.

"Our best deed is as filthy rags." It is my belief that we can't humanly know or understand God's motives. I do know this, however; God's motives are love-driven. Love for the sinner.

HOWEVER, I DO STRONGLY DISAGREE with these "New-Age" Missionary Christians, who will tell you point-blank, that if you don't believe what they believe, you're going to hell. Some of my most treasured friends have told me that they believe the Hindus, Bhuddists, Islamics, are going straight to hell if they don't "come to know Christ" IT SAYS IN THE BIBLE and I quote, "A portion of every race, people and tribe will be saved."

Also, I didn't "come to know Christ" If it was up to my sinful, weak, pitiful mortal being, I would never give God or Christ a second thought. I HAVE NO POWER OVER HIM AT ALL. However, these "Jesus Freaks" are so hypocritical in that saying "you have to accept Jesus" Yet they preach that man is sinful and the flesh is weak. It takes GOD HIMSELF to turn the sinner. It is just our job to obey Him.

This upsets me to no end, and I have seen lots of people sworn off God because some Missionary Baptist has been telling him/her all their life that "Come here and let me help save your soul."

And I know that I am wrong in venting my anger this way. It is not my place to judge. There is an all-powerful Judge whose job is to pass judgement, and I ain't Him. So I hope all is forgiven in this post.

 

I'm thankful that no missionaries come a'knockin' on my door, and that my grandparents don't force their views on me.

I also don't accept the view "If you don't believe this unproven version of an unproven theory of an unproven religion, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE AND GO TO HELL FOR EVER YOU HEATHEN GODLESS SINNER!!! YOU WILL FEEL THE FLAMES OF MY PERSONAL WRATH FOR ETERNITY, AND THE DEVIL'S ANGER WILL SEEM LIKE SUNSHINE COMPARED TO MINE, BECAUSE I AM A HOLY MISSIONARY, SO YOU HAD BETTER REPENT AND BECOME A BETTER PERSON LIKE ME OR ELSE!"

 

yeah, missionaries suck. in fact, religion sucks, too. faith is really all anyone needs... but you can't force faith, and it's wrong to try to punish someone for a lack of faith. what you chose to believe, or don't, should be up to you.

 

Old news. I'm guessing the book you're referring to was printed a decade or more ago. To get a start on the collapse of this long standing philosophical argument you can take a peep at this article

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/008/19.74.html

and follow up with some of the links that get into greater depth on Plantinga's work as a philosopher. Warning, the initial bit is somewhat hyperbolic in its gushing about Plantinga's importance, but his achievements and contributions to philosophy are rather impressive.

New point: This is related but different. A reading of the first few chapters of Genesis (Creation accounts, account of the Fall and its consequences) renders some curious points that often get overlooked. First after pretty much every 'day'* of Creation God inspects what He's done and declares it to be good. When He creates humanity in the form of Adam He declares that particular portion to be very good. In other words, God is proud of His handiwork, but exceptionally so of Man**. In fact it is clear that God's intentions towards humanity is quite different than for the rest of what He has created. Man is the only point of Creation bearing God's image, Man is given charge of naming the Creatures (think about the power of language and naming for a bit and you'll see the inherent power in this responsibility), and Man is charged with the Stewardship of the Creation, that is God puts Man in charge of exercising God's will and desires for the Creation. The element of bearing God's image by itself is cause enough in the account to accept the idea that God has afforded enormous power over his (humanity's) destiny as well as that of the rest of Creation. God created Man to have a relationship with humanity, something that cannot be had when one controls an automaton. Hence humanity is afforded the power to govern and in the account of the Fall chooses to turn away from God. God in His respect for our power to choose will not exercise His sovereignty to overpower our choice. By breaking with God, though, humanity screws up its ability to (a)relate clearly with God, (b)relate to one another, especially on the male-female plane of relationships but also in a broader sense, (c)effectively govern/steward the Creation. In short we chose poorly and broke everything.

Expecting God to simultaneously respect you and take away or prevent suffering is untenable. If a person or persons choose to turn away from God, His direct exercise of His will for good in our lives violates our ability to choose a path apart from Him. Incidentally, this is how I perceive Hell to be, not a burning pit or lake of fire (powerful images that they are) but spending an eternity separated from God because that's what you wanted and pursued. Horrible, but respectful of God's gift to us of choice.

Now because humanity broke it and is unable to fix it and because God loves all of His Creation He acted to intervene to restore the whole of Creation insofar as it wants to be restored to the original order. He gets Himself a people, makes them a nation, creates a solid cultural context and continuity, and steps onto the stage as a human with the purpose of clarifying what He's been saying for the previous 2000+ years and starting the process of re-Creation by sacrificing Himself for anyone who wants to take Him up on the offer (you are free to choose otherwise, much to His grief but true to His promise).


*Why day as the unit of time? I can only speculate, but it lends a sense of power/majesty "all that in such a short time"; it feeds into the concept of work/rest schedules which physiology has backed up; its simply a discreet unit of time that the first audience could get their minds around.

**Man here is used to refer collectively to humanity as it existed at that point in time and intends no slight to rosie or any other women on the boards.

 

Would this be including the medical missionaries who provide the only health services some people would ever know in their lives? Or the development missionaries who teach marginalized people groups how to dig wells for clean drinking water or establish local economies so they can protect their way of life while maintaining viability in the face of encroaching corporate and government power?

Just manipulative purveyors of religion taken advantage of the downtrodden? Considering the vast majority of missions fail unless and until indigenous leadership arises the answer would be 'not really'. Are some missionaries reprehensible? To be sure. Is the history of christian missions stained with condescension, abuse and cultural imperialism? Sadly, yes. But such cases are not the norm whatever Annie Lennox might sing to us.

 

Wow, great arguments Oyarsa! You really should post here more often.

Taking into account what you said about Man initially, why did God leave the choice to one guy to decide for the next, oh, I don't know, thousands of years? Why didn't the present the choice to each person? I have to ask - what the hell was God thinking when He did that?

I suppose I should also clarify something else - in the bit labelled New point, is that your personal theory or someone else's?

Man, I've really got to take a philosophy, logic or debating class at uni when I get the chance. I love discussing this stuff!

 

Yes man you gotta remember about me...