Vendigroth

Discussion in 'Arcanum Discussion' started by moonlight, Aug 24, 2014.

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  1. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    So we have seen vendigroth and its said that tech developed here first, then we learn about the Iron clan ! so who developed tech first ? what do u guys think?
     
  2. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo Well-Known Member

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    Somewhere I'm sure someone states that Vendigroth mastered technology before the dwarves (maybe Arronax says it? Or Pelojian or Nasrudin? Definitely one of those three).

    However, the particular individual in question may have just been unaware of the existence of the Iron Clan (particularly seeing as they are quite hidden away and difficult to access) - so I think it's pretty much impossible to say. Personally I always thought it was odd the idea of anyone mastering technology before the dwarves given their innate aptitude.
     
  3. Wasted_Savior

    Wasted_Savior Member

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    I could be mistaken but it seems like dwarves have an aptitude for technology but prefer not to use it because of their ideology.

    Whereas it has been stated that humans have short lives and because of this they are inspired more to make use of technology.

    This knowledge (if correct) would lead me to believe that humans are much more likely to master technology sooner because they have the drive, ingenuity and need to master it.


    Alternatively, we could look at the growth of technology as an act of evolution...

    For the sake of simplicity let us assume:
    -A dwarf lives for ~1,000 years
    -A human lives for ~100 years
    -One coupling will only have in their lifetime a single "brood" of children
    -Every time a pair(2) within a population give birth they have 4 children to maintain a state of population growth that would double the population in every generation


    If you started with 100 humans and 100 dwarves

    After 1000 years:
    Human Population: 102,400
    Dwarven Population: 200

    After 3000 years:
    Human Population: 104,857,600
    Dwarven Population: 400

    Even if a human is only 1/10th as technologically adept at technology as a dwarf then humans would still be able to contribute (because of their rate of growth) far more technological advances than the dwarves over the same period of time.

    This is all very cursory because I don't know enough details to make an advanced model but on the surface it would appear by numbers alone humans should have obtained higher levels of technology in the event that humans and dwarves sprang into existence at the same moment.

    Of course, all of this ignores which race was first to exist in Arcanum, and how long they lived before the other came along (I believe this was addressed in the lore but I can't recall what the results are).

    It also doesn't take into consideration:
    -Birth and Death rates in children (Dwarves have a much higher constitution and resistance to disease and famine).
    -How great the disparity between a dwarves technological ability and a humans may be.
    -Numerous other factors that could tilt the scales
     
  4. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo Well-Known Member

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    Interesting points Wasted_Savior, I guess humans having more hands to the pump could mean that they simply get more shit done in comparison to dwarves.

    As for dwarves not wanting to use technology, I thought the idea was that they didn't like to use things that eased physical labour. Other than that, I think they're fine with using technology. Admittedly though dwarves are much more ponderous than humans (Randver talking about how he's spent human lifetimes contemplating a mural - sounds like you've led a pretty sweet life their Randver).
     
  5. Wasted_Savior

    Wasted_Savior Member

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    Hm you do have a good point. A long life means a vast repository of knowledge and experience that would increase ones potential to create new technology.

    It begs the question, is quantity of thought more important than depth of thought?

    A dwarf may have a long time to contemplate on a subject but does the urgency of a short life inspire humans to have more fruitful contemplations? A mural is great, but a machine that increases yield or improves quality of life is much more attractive to a human.

    Interesting thoughts. I've always enjoyed this forums pension for asking big questions and receiving even larger answers.
     
  6. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    We need to take into consideration that vendigroth was wiped out nearly 2000 years in the past. While look at the iron clan they are considered to be a myth by even the long lived dwarves. Which begs the question when and why did the Iron clan disappeared ?
     
  7. Ruda

    Ruda Active Member

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    Vendigroth is an Age of Legends era civilization.*

    Kraka-tur killed Bellerogrim during the Age of Legends.

    Judging from the size of Bellerogrim (compared to the size of his/her children in the basement) we can assume that s/he's pretty damn old.

    The Iron Chest is much older than Bellerogrim and was created by the Iron Clan

    Conclusion: the Iron Clan is older, probably much older, than Vendigroth.*


    *Granted, we do not know the time of its birth only its demise, but I assume (perhaps falsely) that Vendgroth isn't older than the Elven Council (seeing as a junior member could curbstomp them all by himself) which isn't older than the Age of Legends.

    *Colours are fun.
     
  8. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    But what if vendigroth itself is older than the age of legends , or atleast older than 2000 years ago. in the end Mazzerin the mystic saw vendigroth and mentioned them in the book which he wrote about 3000 years ago!!
     
  9. Ruda

    Ruda Active Member

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    Since we don't have a proper timeline this sort of discussion is difficult. But let's suppose that Vendigroth is 3000, maybe 4000 years old and met its demise 2000 years ago. We know that Bellerogrim was killed about 2000 years ago which makes the basement dragonspawn at least that old since Bellerogrim very well couldn't have given birth to them after her death. (Or could she? Seriously I have no idea. Are there any in-game books about dragons?)

    My point is that these basementdwellers have lived for 2000 years at still aren't larger than the median races. Bellerogrim, however, is fully grown and it stands to reason that she must have been much, much older than 2000 years at her demise 2000 years ago. I would wager that she was at least 10000 years old, but I'm admittedly pulling this number out of my arse. However, even if we're being generous and says that Bellerogrim was only 4000 years old, she's still older than Vendigroth. And the Iron Chest is even older, if I recall correctly the in-game description refers to it as being "much" older.

    There is just no way that Vendigroth is older than the Iron Clan, at least if we're working with the information provided in-game.
     
  10. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    First of all those creatures are simply wyvern and not dragons ( as it was stated by game devs on the official website that there will be no dragons in game), so they cant possibly be her hatchlings.

    the game states that the chest was there before the dragon not older than him so it could have been in the cave before the dragon dwelled in it. Pelojian stated that vendigroth mastered tech first.
     
  11. Ruda

    Ruda Active Member

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    I believe that the devs meant that there wouldn't be any live fully grown dragons for the player to fight. They obviously have lesser dragon-like beings in the game. Kraka-tur is expressly stated to have turned into a dragon due to him devouring Bellerogrim. Or whatever he was up to. I honestly can't remember what the ritual pertained.

    Now I admit that not every winged beast in Arcanum have to be a dragon. The Lethe Wyvern for example is stated to be dragon-like in appearance, but not an actual dragon. But to claim that the winged beasts that live in a dragon's lair aren't spawn of said dragon seems strange. I know that Arcanum's bestiary wasn't always found where expected (the sewers were filled with a little bit of everything, about twenty different types of ape could be found all over the place, and so forth) but why object to something that actually would make sense? Hell, some of the winged beast in Bellerogrim's lair were even called 'Dragoron' or some such and knew how to use fireflash, which is as close to breathing fire as you can get.

    But I fear we're getting off-topic. And I've had enough discussion on the differences between dragons and wyverns for two lifetimes.

    Fair point, I guess. Still, I'd imagine that a dragon the size of Bellerogrim had to have crawled into her "lair" quite some time ago, seeing as the cave opening is much to small for her to get in or out. But nevermind, this could be explained with engine limitations or more recent cave ins. While we'll probably never find definitive proof as for who was first to discover tech, my money is definitely on dwarves and the Iron Clan. As for Pelojians testimony, I'll just echo Jojobobo's comment. He was most likely unaware of the Iron Clan's existence.
     
  12. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    Fair enough I guess, so what do u think about the Iron clan guys any thoughts of why they disappeared ?
     
  13. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo Well-Known Member

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  14. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    Lol that would be nice, but seriously never did anyone ask himself about thier fate and why did magnus's family got seperated from them?
     
  15. Jojobobo

    Jojobobo Well-Known Member

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    Magnus is a city dwarf who doesn't even know anything about dwarven culture, so it is literally impossible to know why his family got separated from the rest of the clan. When there's limitless possibilities and the game doesn't provide anything to go on all there can be is wild speculation.
     
  16. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    So havent you thought of why did the Iron clan disappeared?
     
  17. Ruda

    Ruda Active Member

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    NamelessOne shared some fairly interesting ideas on the subject in this thread. A lot of it was backed up by the manual and in game books. Can't say i sign off on everything but some of it made sense.
     
  18. Byzantine

    Byzantine Member

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    According to Arcanum lore, it's said that Velorien "blessed" the Vendigrothians to become as advanced as they were before they were destroyed. Has anyone else humoured the idea that the Vendigrothians had been a nomadic tribe beforehand, or that they even came from another continent?
     
  19. moonlight

    moonlight Member

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    Yes I think vendigroth was religious state who valued theology.
     
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