Trust

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Solaris, Dec 20, 2002.

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  1. Solaris

    Solaris New Member

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    Let’s talk about trust. Not the kind of trust that makes you reveal the most guarded secrets of your soul to your best friend, not the kind of trust that makes people risk their lives for each other. Let’s talk about the usual, everyday trust between people, the one we learn when we’re young. “True or false� the kids ask each other when they play, learning to see the difference between the two- or are they learning to lie?

    When we’re kids, we have parents who we trust completely, always and in any situation. We disagree with them, we argue, we take offense, we fight- but despite it all we still trust them. As soon as we grow up this trust is usually gone. Of course some manage to keep it until the end of their lives, some exchange this trust for trust in the woman they love, for trust in God, for trust in a leader, for trust in some big and beautiful idea. But still our life is always a choise. True or false? “Trust me, I know the answers�. “She doesn’t love you, I know, don’t you trust me?� “Trust me, I know where to go�. “Trust me, it’s not dangerous�.

    We rate every man we meet by how much trust we have for him. Some get a lot of “trust points�, but only in a limited area, like math and history. Some get less, but in every field. There is no other way; no one knows the ultimate truth. That’s why we limit out trust, we’re afraid to put too much of it into someone who isn’t worthy. We’re afraid to get hurt.
    All the human history is a story of losing trust in people. We replaced personal trust with laws and traditions. We created states- we don’t trust them in every little thing, but we still trust them more then we trust individuals. We’re trying to make rules for everything, to plan our lives. We want a ready plan of actions for every possible situation. Then we won’t have to rely on other people, we won’t have to trust someone with our lives, our property, our feelings. We want safety, because we all have experience of being betrayed.

    We’ve been betrayed too many times. Too many people who wanted us to trust them had abused our trust, betraying every one of us. This fear, the fear of being betrayed, rules our lives. We trust no one. We created democracy and elections, because we don’t trust our leaders. Husbands and wives sign contracts with each other, because despite their love they’re afraid to trust each other with their property. When our friends borrow money from us, we make them sign receipts. We sign paper after paper to make a simple trade. We invented lawyers, spies, bankers- professions based on lack of trust between people. We did our best to secure ourselves, to lose our need to trust someone. We left it in the past, in our childhood. Trusting is dangerous, so trust no one.

    Yet every now and again we want to be trusted, and when we aren’t being trusted we feel offended. But why? Wasn’t it what we wanted? What we fought for? Didn’t we want this golden age of mistrust? Why do we all of a sudden want to get out of this safe, isolated, self-made “paradise�?
     
  2. Etalis Craftlord

    Etalis Craftlord New Member

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  3. Solaris

    Solaris New Member

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    I guess it was a wrong place to post anything serious. Sorry, I won't do it again. Promise.
     
  4. DarkUnderlord

    DarkUnderlord Administrator Staff Member

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    You'll need to wait for Sheriff Fatman, Milo, retard, Jarinor, Rosenshyne and a few others before you get a serious reply. Unfortunately, Sheriff Fatman, Milo, retard, Jarinor, Rosenshyne and a few others aren't around much anymore.

    By the way, I hate slabs of text. Could you possibly edit it and break it up a little? An extra carriage return for your new paragraphs. Sorry, it's a pet hate. Nothing scares me off like slabs of text.

    As for my reply.
    Let's not. I'm going to Perth, so I can't. Bye everyone! (Yes, this one IS my final post here for two weeks or so).
     
  5. Settler

    Settler New Member

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    Solaris - you can get into some nice philosophical discussions on T-A, believe it or not - just try to prompt people with a short question or paragraph before launching into small essays.

    I will re-read this thread in the morning - but right now, I'm very, very tired. Have faith!
     
  6. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    Solaris, the description of trust you wrote does fit with what I would guess we can all see of the world, but it doesn't leave much room for people being different.

    What if people feel different about trust and hence work in different directions? What if the people inventing spies were fundamentally untrustworthy people who were trying to act in secret, rather than serve their own (or our) trust?

    What if some people would be happy to conduct business on trust?

    What if democracy is an expression of trusting everyone rather then not trusting our leaders? In fact, just last night several people put it to me that true democracy would not work because most people could not be trusted to vote wisely.
     
  7. Solaris

    Solaris New Member

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    The very fact that we have secrets from each other shows how little trust is there in our world. It does work in different directions though. In non-Western societies (the Muslim ones for example) banking often works different, the money is being transferred from one person's account to another without records and signed papers, based mostly on verbal agreement and reputations, but is it because they trust each other more or because they still live in a clan based society with "nice" traditions like vendetta that runs for generations, and the illusion of trust is in fact being maintained by fear?
    Most people would. Do you believe it would work? I doubt it.
    As soon as a certain democratic leader gains too much power people immediately become suspicious and envision the beginning of a fascist rule. Imagine the reaction of the Americans to a suggestion that a president should be able to declare a full out war on a potentially hostile country without the congress approval. Its funny, we don't trust democracy because people can't be trusted to vote wisely and its true, most people are either easily influenced or too stubborn to change their minds when the need comes. We don't trust the elected leaders (power corrupts doesn't it?). But we're terrified of the thought that this whole bunch of untrustworthy people can be replaced with ONE person who also can't be trusted but will not be "balanced" with someone equally bad with opposite interests. The way I see it, democracy is less about electing someone to represent us, and more about being able to NOT elect the less trustworthy leader for a second term.
     
  8. Jarinor

    Jarinor New Member

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    I'm with DU - break it up before I read it. I refuse to read such huge slabs of text without proper paragraphs.

    I'm going away tomorrow for a few days, so chances are I won't be back here till Thursday. Even then, I will have gotten Wizardry 8, so I doubt I'll be around much.

    I have a few things to say on trust, but I'll read your thingy before I write a response.
     
  9. Solaris

    Solaris New Member

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    Are there different rules of making paragrapgs in English? Is a 10 lines paragraph such a trouble to read? Excuse me, but I'm one step from being a professional writer and I fail to see what is wrong with the way I wrote this text.
     
  10. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    No there aren't, but when you write anything, you should bear the target readers in mind. Generally, web users are characterised by a low attention span little tolerance for verbosity. You can ignore that if you like, but it will hinder the success of your attempts to communicate.

    I don't think keeping a secret always has to be a trust issue and I don't think people having a few secrets is hugely significant. I would guess that most people tend towards the open, rather than the secretive. We're familial creatures, always looking to be part of a group, which requires willingness to trust.

    As I said before, I think there are complexities you are overlooking. There are many types of people and many types of relationship between them. Factors such as familiarity, social context and risk all effect trust. I don't really believe the fact that we rarely put complete faith in another person, particularly strangers, means we are generally untrusting.


    Is that entirely about trust? If one person demonstrates a desire to control the lives of others, surely anyone not wishing to be controlled to that degree will opposed them? It doesn't necessarily mean the person feels the leader is untrustworthy, just that the individual wants to retain the right to effect his own future. Subservience does not necessarily translate to trust.

    Whether it would work or not is not the issue. If most people would be happy to conduct business on trust (which I'm not sure is true), that would mean most people are generally trusting in that context. The fact that the system could be broken be a relatively low number of people betraying the trust, just means the trust was misplaced, not that people are untrusting.
     
  11. Etalis Craftlord

    Etalis Craftlord New Member

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    It helps if you break it up more and simplify your point at the end. Think like you're writing an essay ;)

    Example:

    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and in conclusion blah blah.

    Bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh bleh and therefore bleh bleh.

    Finally, blah blah blah blah bleh bleh blah bleh blah bleh bleh - hence, bloh.
     
  12. Solaris

    Solaris New Member

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    You see, I didn't write that piece for this forum, I wrote it for myself and just felt like posting it and seeing if other people feel the same way. It wasn't originally an attempt to create a discussion, just expressing the way I feel. Anyway I like what I wrote and it stays this way. :)
    Sheriff Fatman, you made some very good points, I'll reply later when I think it over :)
     
  13. M@de in China

    M@de in China New Member

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    Solaris jooz got 2 tlk like thes b4 any1 will litsen 2 u

    Yeah there is no trust in the world, I will only trust one person in my life and that is myself. The harsh world has taught me this :sad:
     
  14. Jarinor

    Jarinor New Member

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    Put it this way - having everything as one giant paragraph is not good. If you're one step away from being a professional writer, and you structure all your writings like that, well, I pity your editor.

    The way you've broken it up now is good though. There is no hard and fast rule for paragraph size, but they definitely need to be manageable chunks. White (or possibly blue on this forum) space also helps the eye when you're reading.

    Edit - I've read your article, and I've got a few comments.

    Spies, yes. Lawyers and bankers. No. Lawyers and bankers exist to implement the legal and banking systems respectively, not because we don't trust people. People may not trust them, but that's because of their habits and history, not because that's what their profession is based on. Professions earn a lack of trust in general when significant numbers of people working in those areas do not behave in a way most would consider decent.

    Ever consider that people might marry for reasons other than love?

    I think that you've got the wrong idea for the trust you're talking about, but there's not many specific points in your article I can indicate to support my point. It's just your overal tone and attitude, and your pessimism in general that leads me to feel this way.

    You're writing pretty subjectively there, and some of your points - such as human history all being based on a lack of trust - are pretty inaccurate. I'd say you need to put more work into it, and become more objective, because as it stands it's a pretty average piece of writing by my standards. Longer is not better.
     
  15. xento

    xento New Member

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    It's called wanting something done right and doing it yourself...
     
  16. Sheriff Fatman

    Sheriff Fatman Active Member

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    Hmm ... now that does sound like a trust issue. Believing other people will not be able to do something as well as you is pretty much not trusting them.

    Solaris, while reading Jar's post it occured to me that banking is actually based on trust rather than mistrust. In England, at least, it originated with the use of a promisery note in the place of real coins. For it to take off, there had to be a general trust that the promise of payment written on the note would be honoured.
     
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