the Orcish question!!! ????...=the German question?

well I have recently bought the game and I study international relations and European integration in university ,while wandering in tarrant I decided to read the books in library and when I saw those books named "the orcish question 1-2" I just started to ROLFMAO then I started to read them and my guess was right; those books were discussing about post WW2 German position on industry of Europe via symbolizing them as orcs

the German question=should the industry of Germany be revived for the sake of putting European economy up and running? what if Germans try to attempt a war after their industry becomes fully functional?

the orcish question in arcanum=orcs are violent creatures but they are also more muscular than humans so they could do the hard work that humans cant do in the industrial part of arcanum, so what would happen if cities of arcanum accept orcs as labor?would they cooperate or try to plunder those cities?

ahh this game amuzes me...both books are in tarrant library...

 

yes but gilbert bates was so obvious like he is screaming "look I am bill gates"

 

I always thought that the Orcish question was a reference to the Jewish question.

 

but jewish question is about eradicating them from germany while german question is about forgiving their(germans) crimes against humanity and accepting them into european community(which appears to be EU)-in orcish question they make a debate about integrating orcs into arcanum cities,in the books they say lots of things about integration which symbolizes european union I believe

 

Not only that. Perhaps you should have followed the link I posted?

 

The last known use of the expression was by the Nazis in early twentieth century, culminating in the implementation of the Final Solution during World War II. -when I read final solution I thougth this was about eradicating them

 

The whole treatment of "The Orcish Question" in the game is really very strange, especially considering the "happy" Donn Throgg ending. When I first saw that, I was flabbergasted by how implausible it seemed.

Based on what the game thinks is good, Orcs should have equal rights with other species, and anyone who oppresses them is evil. I don't think there's much support for that position within the context of Arcanum's world, however. It's also quite a stretch to make linkages between real-world racism by humans against other humans and fantastic "racism" by humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings against orcs. It's a fault in the fabric of the game's world. Am I supposed to think of gnomes as Arcanum's "Jewish bankers?" Also, if orcs deserve equal rights, why don't kites deserve equal rights as well? They seem to have a certain level of intelligence.

I think labor conflict is a hallmark of any Victortian setting, but framing orcs as the exploited proletariat is a bad decision.

 

Still, the entire basis of labor movements and unionization rests on the idea that workers, as fellow human beings, deserve a certain level of respect and fair treatment. In Arcanum, the exploited factory workers literally are not human beings. Orcs, if not evil, are naturally violent and do attack people. Even half-orcs are prone to outbursts of violent rage.

Given those circumstances the whole situation requires serious rethinking rather than trying to force it into an unworkable real-world parallel.

 

I'd have to agree. Orcs -do- need some serious guidance at the very least, and as a whole they will never be equal to humans. Honestly, the situation is more comparable in that respect to colonialism in Africa; there, there was a very good basis for the idea that the native peoples were inferior in advancement and it was the "White Man's Burden" to pull them out of the stone age and into the civilized world. Good arguments on both sides of the issue there.

As it stands, though, the game comes down firmly and unambiguously on the side of the orcs. Never mind that as a whole they're as intelligent as your average chimpanzee, not to mention more violent. Orcs and the more brutish half-orcs are an active threat to gnome civilization...but Donn Throgg is, by decree of the endings, clearly doing the right thing in giving them full access to the vote.

(Not that the gnomes are much better, of course.)

 

This is exactly why framing orcs as some sort of oppressed minority group is a bad decision. Do you really want the game to cause people to compare africans to orcs? Or how about - as would be fitting for the Victorian Era - irish people to orcs? And what's to stop someone from then saying the gnomes are like jews? It's an unecessary Pandora's Box.

Mistreated Victorian factory workers were human beings. Colonialized africans were human beings. Orcs are not human beings.

This is one area of Arcanum where the projection of industrialization onto a fantasy setting just doesn't work. It's been oversimplified to the point of absurdity.

 

I don't see how it can help but not be. We really have no other point of reference.

Dwarves always end up as Scots.
Elves as English.
Little blue flying thugs as Jews.
Yellow trade consortiums that ship lead to Nabu are Chinese.
Mobsters are Italian.
Starship captains are Shakespearian.
Crazy people are Christopher Walken or Jack Nicholson.
Where will it end?!

 

Mobsters are traditionally Italian in real life, too. Though it's unfair to stereotype, since they have Asian Mobsters and other Eastern European Mobsters. Black Mobsters are all gangbangers, though.

 

True, but better writing usually makes it less obvious. "The Orcish Question" is an uncharacteristic misstep from Troika.

That reminds me of the first time I went through Jormund's quest in Qintarra, and the guard explained that elves thought marriage was immoral. Made me laugh, because it was making fun of stereotypical fantasy elvishness.

P.S. Aliens in bad sci-fi are human stereotypes too.

P.P.S. From the way dwarven characteristics are described, they've always seemed more Russian than Scottish to me. No one ever makes Russian dwarves, though. Not that I'm suggesting anyone should.

 

I don't see what there is to complain about, really. The orcs were a barbaric people/race before being cornered by the civilized world and transformed into factory workers. They are, because of their very bad reputation, treated as shit and people think higher of dogs. Obviously, some people, often younger people, begins to feel that this simply isn't right. Especially in Tarant where there no longer exists any nobility, thus a greater equality. Why should the orcs not get to take part of that equality? Because, older people tells these sympathetic younglings, they were once evil. And then begins the everlasting mumbo-jumbo about "how do you know that these orcs are evil, just because their ancestors were? Maybe they're just frustrated because you treat them like shit? And who are you to judge them anyway?".

Some people always takes the side of the undertaker.

BTW, how do you know that the orcs of Arcanum are mindless raging monsters, other than from the slander and writings of pre-determined, possibly racist sources? Maybe an Arcanumish orc can be civilized, given that it is brought up and schooled in a sophisticated atmosphere, far away from the violent barbaric tradition (and the racism of the other races).

I just needed to add that some aspects of the arcanum races obviously are borrowed from real sources.

The gnomes, the orcs and the halflings are the three most easily recognized ones.

 

Umm...because I'm constantly being attacked by orcs anytime I wander around the countryside outside Tarant (not to mention inside Tarant). And I'm not constantly being attacked by gnomes and halflings.

One of the nice things about Arcanum is that it contravenes cliché fantasy stories by making almost everything morally relative instead of absolutely good or evil; which is why it's so bizarre that "The Orcish Question" has an absolute morally good side and an absolute morally bad side - and the good side is actually very morally questionable and bad side is actually very morally defensable.

 

Let's see... Are there any barbaric tribes of halflings and/or gnomes? Do these orcs seem like they're brought up in civilized way, and by loving parents? No, no and no? Then what are these orcs? I'll tell you what they are: they're barbarians who are hated all over the world and killed for sport by your average adventurer. They also need money very badly.

The mere fact that they actually ask you to give them the money, rather than just attack you on sight, indicates a certain level of intelligence.

 

...*sighs* I think I've to install Arcanum again. I was going to go awhile without playing it, but now I crave it. Curses.