The Death of Magick?

Discussion in 'Arcanum Discussion' started by Slaughter, May 24, 2007.

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  1. Slaughter

    Slaughter New Member

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    I was wondering a thing. (if my english sounds weird, it's because it's my second language)

    Tecnology, by the time of Arcanum, was the dominant force there. Tech moved engines, magic din'dt not. Technology was weaking magic, as you can see on Tulla, on the Ring of Brodigar and on various other places around. Sure, elves are going to stick to it, but Dwarves, Gnomes and humans STILL are the biggest popullations of Arcanum, and they where clinging more and more to technology. So, I want to talk about this:


    Is Magick going to DIE on the future?
     
  2. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    There is a guy in the Roseborough Inn who tells you about how magic and technology alternate in dominace. Technology was the stronger force in anceint Vendigroth and then magic surpassed it and now 2000 years later technology is taking the lead again. Sooner or later magic will make a come back.
     
  3. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    But it's only a theory of the guy from Roseburg. It seams very logic when you look at all the facts, but I'm not sure on one thing. I mean, if 2000 years before the game, at the time of the elven council, there was the time of superior technology (the power of Vendigroth), than why the greatest spells also existed then? Kerghan knows spells, which our character cannot learn, I believe that is the eternal flame or such (don't remember what other spells were mentioned in Tulla) which he propably knew before being banished, and because the Void stops time, he could still use them. Also, mages living then had then the skill of banishing, which certailny is a very powerful spell. So it looks that both technology and magic is weaker than 2000 years sooner. So what gives? Somebody has any good explenation on this?
     
  4. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    Basic mythology, things in the past always represent far more raw power than the present. You don't see to many giants, dragons and the like in modern day arcanum but the impression is given that once upon a time they were more common. It's part of the theme common to a lot of fantasy that as people and the world around them becomes more civilised they become weaker as well.
     
  5. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    But this means, that either the whole circle of magic and technology superiority is a nonsense, or it's a fact, but every next era of magic/technology is far weaker than the last. Won't it in a end come to total disappearing of both magic and technology?
     
  6. Vyenna

    Vyenna New Member

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    Or, when it's one of those two's turn to be weak, it'll be so weak it disappears and then the stronger part is free to do what it wants so it takes over totally. So you'll get a world with either just magic, or a world like ours, with technology.
     
  7. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    But what I meant, is that 2000 years before the game, *both* magic and technology was strong, at today (in the game) they both are at a familiar level, but weaker than in the past. Due to the theory, when one gets weaker, shouldn'y the other one get stronger, instead of becoming weaker too?
     
  8. Vorak

    Vorak Administrator Staff Member

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    Technology will always win. As much as people may go on about liking magic better and wanting a pet dragon in reality the only way to experience these things is thanks to computer gaming technology.

    Fantasy games are irony incarnate.
     
  9. Langolier

    Langolier Member

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    In the Age of Legends and before magick was unquestionably dominant. Yes, Vendigroth was more technologically advanced than modern Arcanum, but it was an isolated region. A single city-state (it would appear) that had little or no influence outside its own boarders. Even though the overall level of technology in modern Arcanum is lower than it was in Vendigroth 2000 years ago, it is ultimately stronger because it has much broader influence. It isn't just one city using technology. It's nearly every city. It's the dwarves, Tarant, Cumbria, Shrouded Hills, and Caladon. All the major cities as well as the small towns have bits and pieces of technology in them. Perhaps just street lights or field plows, but technology none the less. Back durring the age of legends it would seem that this was not so and that virtually everyone either used forms of Magick to supplement their societies or more likely nothing at all. What made Technology powerful is that it could be utalized by the common man or woman without needing (literal) lifetimes of study.

    There's a book in Tarant, I think, or possibly Tulla that describes how the rise in the application of Science may eventually completely snuff magick out all together as well as any races derrived from magick. An interesting outcome, I think, as by the nature of Magick vs Science in Arcanum if Magick ceased to be completely then it is almost certain that future generations born after its dissapearance would not believe it had ever existed in the first place. In Arcanum, the essence of Magick is that it cannot truly be tested in a scientific way, only witnessed. So without any way to verify that it was EVER real nobody would be able to believe in it reliable without resorting to faith. Perhaps a playful spin on modern history. (IE: we can't experience the amazing miracles talked about in the Bible or other ancient tales because our technological sophisitication has snuffed out the powers that performed said miracles)
     
  10. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    Well, when you think about Vendigroth that it was only a exception and a single point of strong technology at the era of magic, the theory of the magic & technology eras circle makes sens again.
    I remember that book, but when I read it, I just lookmed at it as a imitation of scientific stammering whit lots of theories, which point is to make an illusion, that the magic-technology problem was something on which generations of philosophers thought in the world of Arcanum, and i maked it deeper and more realistic. When I'll get the book in my current game, I think I will think more on it.

    I must say, that is a very interesting notice. Something like to say "modern technology killed the gods of ancient mythologies".
     
  11. Slaughter

    Slaughter New Member

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    I have a particular way of seeing magick:
    What it apears, is that magick is a kind of pure, raw primal energy that can be used and molded by the willpower of almost any being that is inherently magickal, or by any sentient being versed in how to use it.

    The conflict between magick and technology is that one twists nature's laws, the other uses it, right?
     
  12. rroyo

    rroyo Active Member

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    Right! Technology is dependant upon the natural laws, while magic works against them. I seem to remember it's the hedgewizard in Shrouded Hills who explains that.
     
  13. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, he says he works the middle ground as an alchemist.
    I remember reading a discussion here before about how it would better help a mage to be stupid and strong willed.
    However, that brings into question what your opinioon of intelligence is.
    We, as modern people, see intelligence as the ability to comprehend natural laws and why they work. A mage might see intelligence as the best way to bend nature to his/her will, and make the laws work in her/his own favor.
    Basically, a "smart" mage could be incredibly dull witted, but so stubborn that essentially anything brought to mind would be a reality.
     
  14. Langolier

    Langolier Member

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    I think intelligence is simply problem-solving ability. You can make life easier by understanding natural law and using that to your advantage, or circumventing it via magick. Willpower in a mage's case is important because the more intelligent he is the more easily he will understand natural law and risk undermining his own magickal potential. Ofcourse we also know that you need intelligence to use your spells cleverly and to control multiple spells at once.

    (which I guess everyone has already said, but I feel like contributing anyway)
     
  15. TONGSyaBASS

    TONGSyaBASS Member

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  16. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly to what I was referring. It figures that it would be something you said, TONGS :lol: .
     
  17. JustaFishInaJar

    JustaFishInaJar New Member

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    Who needs magic when you can create metal spiders to due your bidding. Plus it's easier to pull a trigger and shoot a guy in the face while he's conjuring a spell.
     
  18. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but without magic, he'd just be the babbling invalid waiting for you to shoot him in the face.
     
  19. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    It's easier to time stop for a gunslinger with a temporal magic spell, laught at him for a few minutes and then kill him. And well, in Arcanum casting most spells is as quick as pulling a trigger. And speaking of power, show me a gun that's as powerful as a desintegration. And then, technogist builds arachnids and automatons, mage summons demons and elementals - I think the second fellow has strognger party in this case.
     
  20. Mori

    Mori New Member

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    The guy's theory is pretty dubious. Technology was only destroyed because of an irrational act. If Arronax had waited a bit longer, the Vendigrothians would have completed their mage-killer and killed Arronax, so technology would have remained dominant. Also, there is anti-magic technology. There is not proper anti-tech magic.
     
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