Saudi Women say they arenot repressed.

The online NY Time for Oct 25, 2002 have than ed piece in which the write talk to Saudi Women in Saudi Arabia.
" I cover up my body and my face and I 'm happy that I'm a religious girl obeying God's rules." a dietician name Lana scolded me after I wrote a typically snide reference to repressed Saudi women. " I can swin and do sports and go to restaurants, and wear what I want but not in front of men, why should I show my legs and breasts to men. Is that really freedom?"
In Riyadh, sereral Saudi women offered the same scathing critique, effectively arguing that Saudi women are the free ones--- free from sexual harassment, free from pornography, free from seeing their bodies used to market cars and colas. It is Western women,they say , who have been manipulated into becoming the toys of men. Some of these women run they own bussieness as doctors than other profression.
They are sick than tire of Westen media type saying that they are repressed.

 

The trouble is, they really aren't necessarily free from pornography. Saudi men are still men are still just as prone to look at porn. Saudi women may not be IN the porn as often, but they still live alongside men who use porn.

For that reason, the Saudi way of covering up women only works as long as there is a set of women not covered by the rules (ie. foreigners), who Saudi men can go to for porn.

This is interesting. Noone, especially women, in more tolerant cultures is entirely free to wear what they want. There may not be anyone telling them what to wear, but there is pressure to go with trends and to make yourself attractive. However, this kind of generalized pressure is still more freedom than Saudi women have. They are governed by rules as to what they can wear, and that is clearly more restrictive (ie. less free) than people who are only governed by peer pressure they sign up to.

Apart from anything else, to agree with a different set of rules for women than there are for men, you have to work against gender equality. Double standards ALWAYS mean someone is being repressed. Claiming to be happy about being repressed does not mean you're not repressed.

[EDIT]Corrected some trivial little missing word.

 

I would like to know if those women told all that of their free will. An important point made by them is that our standards, which we approve may be actually perceived as wrong by other cultures. Still in my opinion it is better when a women who wakes up in the morning can be sure that regardless of whether she puts on a mini-skirt or cover herself from head to toe will not be abused. Freedom of choice is one of the most important values for me. Then again doesn't our "let's bring light of freedom to those oppressed people" attitude make us some sort of modern crusaders? I mean what gives us the right to assume that we are in the right? But I ramble. Worse even it is a hypocrisy because I would like freedom introsduced to (or imposed on - depending on the approach you choose) to all countries on our planet.

 

Dragoon is on the same track as my line of thinking on this one. You can't be sure that those women were speaking of their own free will - for one, because the society they live in DOES view women as subservient to men. Women, therefore, have learned in islamic cultures like Saudi Arabia, to say and do as is expected of them, because repercussions from the patriarchal "masters" in those societies is definitely something few women want to be subjected to.

Further, we must also take into account the fact that women who've grown up in the religion, culture and mindset that is prevalent in Saudi Arabia naturally would feel the way they do, if that is what they have been taught to believe their entire lives, much the same as folks who've grown up in religiously and politically "free" countries, have a natural inclination to think their brand of "freedom" is the preferable and normal state of things.

So I'm the first to admit that growing up in the U.S. post-1960, has made me want to appreciate uninhibited freedom and equality for all women. I immediately feel that women in Saudi Arabia are being mistreated. But I recognize that this view is obviously colored by my own cultural and political environment and life experiences. So there you have it.

 

I strongly dissagree with this opinion, and I'd hope that I am not the only one. They say that I'm an object which really offends me. Being free to dress provactively or just in jeans and a shirt doesn't make a person an object. I consider myself quite lucky that I am literate, that I can wear whatever I want, and that I won't have to marry around age 15. I'm not even really sure I believe what some of this stuff says. These women must cover up in front of men, head to toe, and they're okay with that? They're okay with the fact that if they have a child out of wedlock that they'll be buired up to their necks and then stoned to death? I doubt that any country is free of pornography and sexual harrassment. Maybe there's less of it, but I can't believe that it's gone all together. I have to agree with SF, just because they claim they're happy doesn't mean that they aren't repressed.

 

It is all a part of their culture i think. they have been told that this is the way it is supposed to be and they do so. When the women in norway and probably in other countries started to fight for equality it actually happened that older women came and told them that what they did was wrong.

 

I hate to say this I than get tire of the Western Media bashing Saudi Arabia like CBS did by allowing That Christian Fundamentalist Jerry Falwell to spead his hate fill message on TV. I wrote to the UN Secretary General to have the UN pressure American to take away Falwell Church tax exp. status which IRS give then so they donot pay tax on the Church income and member who give it money can have than tax decution. His apolize mean nothing he should never have said these remark.
NOW complain of men looking at then while they are wearing lowcut blouses and microminshirt. It an woman dress right that she has no right to complain that men are looking at her legs and breast The man in Saudi Arabia cover thenself head to toe in their rode as protection from the sun which can give you than deadly sunburn which is call sunpoison which can
kill you if not treat right away. The man in the desert cover their face also
to protect again sand blowing around by the wind. In El Paso we once awhile get dust strom from the desert where it can be hard to breath without breathing in dust. I rather he talk to these woman alone in public. Alots of reporter who write about repressed Saudia women never went to Saudi arabia in the first place and many of then never talk to than Saudi woman about it they feel that they are repressed. For very Saudi woman who was put to death for than child out of wedlock there are thousand's that where not put to death as they hushand follow the Prohet advise and
forgive they wife. The report of stoneing are so blow out of prop. that than Middle East Newpaper look into then an found only one actical case of stonethrowing . Than Yemen father rape his five year old girl than try to put the blame on than other man for his crime. The people of his village kill him by throwing stone at him. No court of Yeman approve of this and no action will be taken by the court toward the villager as the court think the village act in the right way. While in Pakistian some village elder are faceing rape charge for ordering in a case before then the rapeing of than woman because her bother did something. In these socierty it is very hard to the courts which are based in big cities only to change the Tribeable thinking of the rural people . It the court try to get involse in very case there would be unrest as the tribal people donot loke outsider tell then what to do. So the court only get involse when the local village elder or tribal council do something so out of line that they must act. It help that the Chief Iman of Pakistian was also very upset by the Village elder action which was against the Koran that he wrote than religious ruleing against it which was hand to the Hight Court and than hand to the police. That ruleing help avoid bloodshed while the police from the city make their arrest.
If the women of Saudi Arabia really feel repressed they are perfert able of takeing action on their own. Their could alway remove they robe in public than show the very low cut blouse and very short skirt they wear unbreanch their robe by this I donot mean one of two but million's of Saudi
woman doing it at the same time. There would be no way for the Saudi government to do anything about this ascept to give in on some of the women demands. The Saudi government just resently approve of allowing
woman to own their own small bussieness. In fact when Saudi Arabia was found in the 1920's women where not allow to be edurate in school at all.
Slowly it change that women are allow to get PhD decree. That why there
is no feeling of being repressed along Saudi woman.

 

It seem like America, Japon and most of Europe are the main producter of pornography materal in the world. I donot look at Huster magaine as it say you can beat your wife of girlfriend it their donot do what you want then to do. I donot want to see picture of woman being rape of kill in snut films.
For each woman kill for haveing than child out of wedlock thousand 's arenot kills as their hushand forgave then. Saudi Government doesnot take action on than woman that have than child out of wedlock automathic
the hushand must start the action. Most Saudi man can have only one wife and their must pay than Bride price to her family which at it lower is about
beteew 50,000 to 250,000 dollar it can be pay in installent payment. This custom is older than Koran. It make sure that than man will treat his wife
better, than it work. The money isnot refund even when the woman has than child out of wedlock.

 

It's not all that different a story from what happened in Europe and other more egalitarian countries 100 years ago or so.

They still have a long way to go before women are equal to men in Saudi Arabia. If they do not feel repressed, someone is not doing a very good job of explaining equality to them. Naturally, Saudi women are extremely unlikey to want to view their own way fo life as inferior, so will undoubtedly look for ways in which their way of life is superior.

I have to say to you, Charles, I am not certain how allowing women to choose how to dress results in pornography. I was under the impression the pornography industry is largely run by men, for men. I don't think it came about by a lot of women saying "I think I'll exercise my freedom to choose and wear no clothes today."

 

Good points all around.

I don't buy it that Saudi women as a whole do not feel oppressed because of a few quotes by a few women. During the slavery days, I'm sure there were at least a few "Uncle Toms" out there that believed in all the racist shit. That being subservient to whites was the right and proper way of things. Just because a few of these "house niggers" could be found, does that in any way represent the views of all the blacks in this country? Of course not, hence the Underground Railroad and the eventual civil rights movement.

The NY Times article quoted in the opening post quotes only one woman, the dietician named Lana. It also cites "several Saudi women" in Riyadh. What evidence is there that these women are in any way representative of Saudi women as a whole?

 

Well done, DU, you're the only who past that test. Yes, er ...

 

Yes, you appear to be right. I'm sorry friends. Thanks for pointing that out, DU. ^_^

 

and

"Out of wedlock" means the woman had a child without being married. By default, then, these women HAVE no husbands to forgive them, in the first place.

Furthermore, and this is just my feminist streak shining through...why should they be "forgiven", in the first place? Sheesh. Independant women should be able to do as they wish. Obviously though, I recognize that islamic culture does not feel the way I do. Islamic culture doesn't even really allow for independant women in the first place. They are either property of their fathers, or property of their husbands. A woman is seen in one way or another, as just another possession. (Hence as Charles mentioned the dowry and all this).

In a more general note - We can debate the cultural standards of Islam for eons (as has been done for quite some time already). In the end, insular cultural practices are just that - insular. There's really no way to dispell them without stepping on quite a few people's toes. Suffice to say that speaking for myself, a woman, I would not take kindly to being told what to wear, how to act in front of men vs. alone. etc. I certainly would not like being treated as cattle and being told by some patriarchal government that I'm not "allowed" to educate myself or flaunt my bodily assets, etc. No thanks. But that's just me.

 

Windmills, you (and most people here) have an admirable desire to live and let live when it comes ot other cultures. I, too, am wary about ebing judgemental. However, if you believe something is wrong - even after you have taken your own cultural biases into account - there is nothing wrong with saying so.

We all share the world and are entitled to our opinion.

You cannot excuse everything as "okay because it is part of a culture." It is possible for things to be embedded in a culture and still bad. Slavery and cannibalism for example have both been part of various cultures at some point, but are just wrong, and now recognised as such by most cultures.

For me, extreme inequality is something I'd consider not subject to being excused as a cultural issue.

As for the "husbands forgiving them" aspect, who the fuck did these women sleep with? Why it only the woman who is considered culpable in an act involving both a man and a woman?

 

You may misconstrue, just a bit, SF - I do consider treating women as inferior, and property, as wrong - women are just as capable as men in almost every way, and should be treated as such. My point is that these cultural beliefs are so inherent in the islamic religion, that it is not really up to us (and would be awkward, what's more) to preach at another culture our own standards and views. If islamic women, themselves, want to change things, it is up to them to do so (as has been pointed out has been happening, although very slowly). I have personal value-judgements, sure, but that alone, cannot change a completely different culture from mine, that I am not a part of.

I think it's not so much that we're excusing it, as much as it is that we're recognizing that our views are quite removed from those of islamic culture, and so our conclusions are necessarily quite different than those immersed in that culture. If we want to get into the region of moral absolutes, we first have to make sure we're all on the same page. I submit that islamic culture is *not* on the same page - what is fundamentally wrong to us, is fundamentally right (even holy) to them, regarding women's place in society. If things are to be changed, then, they must be changed from within. Preaching from without just causes hatred and mistrust, as can be readily seen in the current Islamic anti-western sentiment.

It shouldn't be - It obviously takes two to tango. Both should bear the responsibility. However, if you want to know WHY women are considered solely at fault - it's because we live (to a lesser or greater degree depending on where you are in the world) in a vastly patriarchal society where women usually get the shorter end of the stick in many respects (I'm sure you already recognize that, so I'm answering a rhetorical questions, I'm well aware). But I still find it saddening that, In a sexual situation, women are seen as "vile temptresses" whereas men are just "doing what comes naturally." Unfortunately, men's sexuality is considered normal - and therefore excusable, but women, who have just as equal a sexual drive, are expected to repress theirs - and if they don't, they deserve to be blamed for it. Wrong? Of course! Changing the status-quo, however, is a much more delicate process.

 

He the reporter visit SA many time in the past. The Saudi woman have certain right grant to then by the Koran which Western Woman donot have. Plus the Saudi version of Islam is than very prunal and strict version of Islam but it also isnot the Mainstream version of Islam. Even in SA only 20%
of the population follow that sect at all. So most Islamist women who are working to change their life and have women treated as equall in Islamist world as the Founder want then to treated, they are many time hindred by the Western Media way of handle this matter and as they point out to some western woman right active they must use the Koran to advance their struggle for equall right.
Under the old mean out of wedlock can mean than woman is carrying than
baby that isnot her husband but of than other men and that is the meaning of the word in SA.

This remain me of than America male who trie to sell alchol in SA which he make , he was warm many time by our reperation there not to do so as it carry the death penalit in SA. The King before this current King has this America whip 50 time on his back by than whip. When he went to the America Rep. in SA to complain about it he was cut short when their said we warm you not to break SA law.