How to get Thorvald Two Stones to stay in party?

Discussion in 'Arcanum Hints & Tips' started by BokajSarugiz, Nov 22, 2008.

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  1. BokajSarugiz

    BokajSarugiz New Member

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    I got Thorvald Two Stones to join me on the Isle of Despair. I read somewhere that you need to briefly remove him from the party when you speak to the entrance guards at the Wheel Clan base, and then you can ask him back. I did that but despite this every time I go anywhere other than the Wheel Clan he either says " What are we doing here. I want to go back to the wheel clan" etc. or complains that I have no intention of taking him back to his clan and simply leaves the party. Is there any way of getting him to stay on permanently?
     
  2. Ramidel

    Ramidel New Member

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    He's not meant to stay permanently. This is a feature, not a bug; you can't drag most characters around forever when they have an important date somewhere.
     
  3. Krycek

    Krycek New Member

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    Well, this is debatable in the case of Thorwald. Do we know for a fact that he wasn't meant to be a follower? He is roughly at the appropriate level when you meet him and you have to fulfill a requirement (12 Persuasion) to add him. That just doesn't seem like a Murgo or Swyft type. And even if he wasn't meant to be a regular follower, is this the kind of bug that needs fixing? Is he somehow a gamebreaking character to have around?

    I had the same problem as the original poster recently. The UAP v081004 considers having Thorwald in your party a bug. Bad for me as I wanted to recreate my first playthrough experience. In my first game I had Thorwald with me when I fought Kerghan. Now this is impossible. As much as like Drog's patch, this I consider to be a bad choice.

    My character didn't even promise him to bring him back to the Wheel Clan. All I said is that I will help him to get off the island.

    What's next? Will Dante leave me as well in the next version of the patch?
     
  4. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, he doesn't want to follow you. He goes with you simply because you promise him a ticket home. Thorwald shouldn't become a permanent follower, and that's it.
     
  5. Krycek

    Krycek New Member

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    "and that's it" is seldom a convincing argument. Do you have prove that he doesn't want to travel with the protagonist? Is there a dialogue line in the original game where Thorwald demands to be taken to the Wheel Clan?

    One could argue that Virgil doesn't want to follow me, he just does what Elder Joachim wanted him to do. Sogg just wanted out of Shrouded Hills. Magnus just wanted to find his clan (I suppose he should leave after the Iron Clan). Jayna wanted to go to Tarant.

    And btw, what the hell is Thorwald's leveling scheme (up to lvl 50) doing in the game if he is just a Murgo-type NPC?
     
  6. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm fairly sure he says something to that effect both when you convince him to leave the Isle of Despair and when he's hailed by the Wheel Clan guards. Oh, and there's the tiny little detail that Troika scripted him to leave the party to stay in the Wheel Clan once there but... yeah, Thorvald probably doesn't want to do that, he's just a victim to evil scripting.

    Mind you, I tend to keep both Dante and Thorvald because they kick ass, but saying that Thorvald doesn't want to live with the Wheel Clan is just plain retarded. And all levelling schemes go to 50 by the way.
     
  7. Krycek

    Krycek New Member

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    I didn't say that he doesn't want to go home.

    In Baldur's Gate II one could accept Keldorn the paladin as a follower. If you did his quests you could see that he'd rather be with his family. But did the game force you to let him go? No, and that's good game design. It isn't always about being realistic. Sometimes it is about being fun.

    Bugfixing should serve the same purpose: increasing the fun. Where exactly is the fun in loosing Thorwald or Dante while they were perfectly fine companions in older versions of the game?

    Seriously, who would think of this as an improvement of the original version?
     
  8. Viktor_Berg

    Viktor_Berg New Member

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    I do. I find it rather interesting that some NPC's have their own goals and pursue them, instead of dragging their ass behind you through the whole Arcanum (and possibly Void), in search who-knows-what.

    It's actually more realistic than an NPC that abandons ALL personal goal while he/she joins the party.
     
  9. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Sorry, but fun doesn't always mean more phat l3wt and awesum followarz, that's the kind of stuff that, left unchecked, will destroy a game. You can't have everything, and that's a good thing. The Vault Dweller gets expelled from Vault 13 at the end of Fallout, and damn, that's the stuff that makes it memorable. Had it been your average happy ending it wouldn't have been as good.
    It's made pretty fucking clear that Dante wishes to serve Cumbria and Thorvald wants to go home after so many years at the penal colony. Why should they keep following you? Because you think it's fun? Sure, they're great fighters, but they don't really have anything to add apart from that. No interesting pieces of dialogue, no bickering with other party members; they're meatshields, because they weren't intended to stay in your party indefinitely.
     
  10. Krycek

    Krycek New Member

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    You are right, that would be more realistic.
    That's where I am coming from: A game doesn't need to be overly realistic. It needs to be fun. In a realistic game every single follower would leave you at the Ring of Brodgar. Getting banished to the Void is probably a little too much.
    Agreed.
    But does it mean that Arcanum is a better, more memorable game when Throwald and Dante leave my group?
    Apply what you said there to Sogg and Jayna.
     
  11. Viktor_Berg

    Viktor_Berg New Member

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    There is a line between realism and gameplay. I think our opinions differ simply because we draw the line in a different place.

    Stop hyperbolising. It does not mean that Arcanum is a better game, it simply adds some diversity to the gameplay.

    Again overblowing. Listen, if you were Thorvald, wouldn't you leave for the Wheel Clan? Other examples: Swyft is a "young" elf, she just wants to visit Tarant, check out some vistas. She is not at all interested in whatever fights you involve yourself in. Same with Thorvald and Dante - they don't give 2... errr... cents about your fate, they want to achieve their goals. The followers that DO stay with you are either "persuaded" by you to stay, or simply like you too much.

    I like the fact that your followers are not simple dolls to help you fight. Good NPC's will protest when you attack a good aligned human/creature. Etc. Why can't there be some selfish/lightheaded NPC's as well? Lightheadedness is certainly a major trait in many humans on the planet.
     
  12. Krycek

    Krycek New Member

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    I see what you mean. Though my question remains: Is this a bug that needed fixing?

    We used to have two options: Letting him go home / keeping him in the party. One could make an individual choice. You would probably let him go. I would keep him in my current game because he is the only dwarf who would fit in a mainly evil party.

    Is this Metagaming (not letting him speak with the Wheel Clan dwarfs)? Yes it is. Does it ruin my game, my experience? Is it some kind of a cheat that makes me totally uber? No.

    So again: was this a game-enhancing fix? Were there people on the net constantly whining about Thorwald not leaving the party? Probably not.
     
  13. Viktor_Berg

    Viktor_Berg New Member

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    Well, if you look at it that way, then you are right. Don't fix it if it ain't broke. The same actually applies to Gar - either release him or get him to stay.
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Jesus Christ, the script was broken and I fixed it. There's no new dialog in the UAP, it's all original. They programmed him just like Swyft and Murgo, however his script was messed up (mostly invalid goto's). Thorvald constantly pesters you about going to the Wheel Clan, you can even ask him about the current location and if it's not the Wheel Clan he says that you need to get there ASAP. Anyway, it was a bug and there's nothing to debate, take your powergaming needs elsewhere.

    Considering Dante, he had a bug that if you ask him to wait he rejoins you as a free follower (with no CH check). The same with Jormund. Obviously this was not intended.
     
  15. Dirtman

    Dirtman New Member

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    Damn, now I want to play Fallout AGAIN! :lol:


    As for the whole Dante/Thorvald thing, I never liked the fact that you could keep them in the party. It was apparent that it was a bug AND it just didn't feel right. Though Dante really is a great character. :/
     
  16. Krycek

    Krycek New Member

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    Alright, I suppose I am just pissed that I took advantage of a bug in my first game. Honestly, it would have never occured to me that he was illegitimate. I blame the first walkthrough that I read. Listed him as a regular follower.

    Glad to hear about the status of Dante btw.
     
  17. Roke

    Roke New Member

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    Here's a question, then:

    Thorvald just left my party while on a busy street in Tarant. Unfortunately, he was carrying all my plot items. He won't even speak to me now, so is there any way of retrieving whatever items he's carrying? I've tried killing him, but that winds up turning all of Tarant against me. Is pickpocketing a viable solution? Is there some technological way of luring him away from the crowd so I can murder him in peace? Or am I going to have to reload from a much earlier save?
     
  18. Viktor_Berg

    Viktor_Berg New Member

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    Hmm, if you have Fate points, you can pickpocket him even with low pickpocket skill.

    The other way is if you have a poisoning item. Drop it close to him, walk away, he will pick it up and die.

    I'm not sure, but I think Mental college spells will turn NPC's hostile.
     
  19. Dirtman

    Dirtman New Member

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    Dominate Will scroll from the wizard merchant's shop.

    Dynamite applied from a large distance and away from any possible witnesses. Try sneaking while doing it.

    Time Bomb can be placed directly in front of him without ANYBODY noticing, 'cause it's a present. :D
     
  20. Arthgon

    Arthgon Well-Known Member

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    You could lead some monsters to him, and that the monsters will finish him off.
     
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