Evolution of a 'Jolly Old Elf'

What I'm saying is that while I won't whip out my gun and rally my uniformed boot boys together to keep you from practicing your religion, I reserve my right to actually hold an opinion instead of just remaining completely fucking politically correct. Therefore, if you want to be a Wiccan then I respect your decision, but I'll still have a negative opinion about that religion, and if I'm wrong then please, cast your spells on me so i might see the truth.

As for the racist issues, sure, they can talk all they want, but if anyone tries to lynch anyone or pass any segregational bill in my neck of the woods I'll be walking down the street with a placcard, and if I know of any violent nazi/kkk/skinhead type activities going on near by, then I'll whip out my black bandana and find out where they live.

As for the vampire thing, (you really did take the kosher statement way to seriously) give me one good reason not to believe they aren't a bunch of bored/deluded nerds. Once again I don't mind them doing it, but I reserve my own right to hold an opinion.

My uncle once said that the liberals were the real fascists, and I think hes pretty right in some respects, especially about the political correctness issue. How can we improve our society without criticism or discussion?

 

And I wouldn't be attacking your opinion if you didn't post it like it was the high and fucking mighty say all end all. I am by no means for political correctness, if someone's insulted by what I say, too fucking bad. I'm not trying to blow your posts out of proportion as Wolf says, I'm just trying to dislodge that massive stick from your colon.

 

ACH!

If thats how you feel then what do you feel is wrong with what I've been saying? Why can't you accept my right to the stick in my colon? I mean, you seem to be ok with racism, so whats wrong with it if i have a stick in my ass about that kind of mindless intolerance?

The tone you percieve in my prose is not the one intended, this is just how i write.

 

Well, if it is simply your style then I must apologize.

I never said I was ok with racism. I too find racism disgusting, but I know that those racists feel it is the right way, and as you said, before you start attacking people, shouldn't you ask if your beliefs are correct? Maybe racists are right. They certainly think they are, and it's not my place to dispute their beliefs, even if there was a chance I could change them. I feel racism is ridiculous and the product of a lack of education.

This wasn't the issue I felt you were being particularly anal about, I think your being childish with this double standard you have. You say you accept people's beliefs and then, in almost the same breathe, list points attacking beliefs. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but the timing of your posts reeks of hypocrisy.

My only real problem was that I was put off with your apparent attitude, but as you say, it's just your style.

 

Life is full of double standars, for example, you say you endorse tolerance even if that means condoning intolerance. What the fuck is that all about?

I cannot have one single opinon that can cover every belief structure, I look at every situation individually, therefore I have a different opinion about the fact that while i respect religion and atheism equally, this opinon is going to difer from whether or not i condone naziism! If you want to look at this as a double standard, then thats your right, I respect your right to voice your opinion, but I expect you to respect my right to think you're a hypocrite for professing that you are without intolerance when you don't seem to tolerate my opinon very well.

 

I will repeat, my main problem was your attitude, the WAY you stated your opinions. I share alot of your views, I was just getting sick of the condescending tone in which you posted them. But, perhaps I was reading too much into it, and it was just the way you write. I know several occasions in which I've come off like a jackass when I didn't mean too.

I never said I'm without intolerance, but I haven't been droning on and on for two pages about treating faiths equally.

I have a question though, a very unpopular one, but one nontheless. You say you respect religion and aetheism equally, some of your earlier posts contradict that, but so be it.

Yes, I understand naziism is an extreme example, but I never said, nor did you really, that condoning something is necessary. As I've said, prejudice is thinking lower of something because it doesn't fit your mold. If someone is a nazi, despite the utter ridiculousness of that belief system, isn't it prejudice to start discriminating against them. You can personally abhor the idea, you could be the furthest thing from a nazi. But they obviously think it works, and maybe to them not being a nazi is a heinous as we think being a nazi is.

Saying you condone something implies you accept it, but you don't need to do that in order to respect it. Yea, I think if someone truly believes that naziism is the true way, they are severely misguided. But if you have one right in America, above all, it's the right to be misguided.

And do you place Wicca and vamprism on the same level as naziism? Why are they ridiculous, why would you disrespect them? They don't follow your mold, so you disagree with them?

It isn't that hard to have a very broad belief structure. True, circumstancially it would change from day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, but in a broad sense it is very easy. You say, try and see it from their point of view. It's easy for major religions. I'm christian, and that makes sense to me. He's muslim, it must make sense to him. Why can't you take it to other levels though? He's a facist, he's a communist. They must see something I don't. It doesn't mean you need to hang out with them and get all Barney and friends with each other, but it does mean that they probably think as highly of their ways as you do of yours, so why would you 'openly ridicule' them. Forgive me if that wasn't an exact quote.

 

My opinion on Naziism is a bit more extreme than my opinion on something so frivolous as Wicca, and vampirism. Naziism is a scourge while vampirism is just silly.

 

Granted, I share that belief, although I don't think Wicca or vamprism are nearly as silly as Christian Scientists. But as I said in my last post, the degrees to which you carry your beliefs will change,

ex. there is a sizable Christian Scientist population in my town, they have a church right next to the bakery. I think that faith is ridiculous, but I still will hang out with kids of that faith, while the neo-nazi group, basically 4 kids in my gym class who have nothing better to do, don't get that privilege. And yes, it is a privilege.

But even though the degrees change, the basic premise remains the same. I don't associate with those 4 kids, but I still, try at least, to say to each his own, as I do with the Christian Science guys.

 

Well what would you think about those neo-nazi kids if you were black or jewish? To each his own? What if your annihilation was part of my belief structure, even if all I did was talk, threaten, and dream about it?

 

Well, if you had a problem with me, and that was it, you didn't actually attempt to hurt me, I would probably not associate with you. Undoubtedly it would be harder to say to each his own, but the fact remains, that person is going to think what they are going to think. What the hell can you do to change their mind? So why waste your worry on things that cannot be accomplished? Of course, I am not black or jewish, I don't know personally how it would be, but if you wanted to annihilate me, what could anyone, especially I do to change your opinion? I would think you're crazy, I haven't done anything, but when you can't do anything about it, what can you say except let it be and leave the kid alone.

And what would I think of the kid? I would probably dislike the kid, not necessarily because of his beliefs, because I dislike most people who talk, threaten, and dream about killing me. Of course, and I'll admit it would be much harder to realize this when you are involved in the situation, I know that the kid thinks of me the same way, and in his eyes I'm the one at fault.

 

Your view that you can never change anyone's mind strikes me as an extremely defeatest point of view. A few years ago I was a completely right wing candidate for a career in the millitary, and had been for almost my entire child hood, but the things that have gone on around me since then have turned me into a near-anarchist. This is partly due to the way people have treated me, and have treated themselves, andf partly due to the overwhelmingly convincing argument posed by what is known as the real world. People ARE inflenced by your actions and statements, the fact that you would act with disdain for the person that wanted you dead would only further cement his belief that you are an evil heretic. Actions are the best arguments, love your enemy's and soon you'll have none.

 

Hehehe, that's funny, how you say your intelligent and miss my point so completely.

YOU changed your ideas. If a few years ago an anarchist, because you were so far from them, came up to you and tried to convince you about the faults of the government, what would you have done? Sat down and logically considered their every point? If someone hates you, first of all, nothing you say can convince them you are a good person. Yes, if they think you are evil and ready to kill them, and you don't kill them, they might change their views. They probably won't though.

You and me must be assuming different actions on the part of the bigot. I'm assuming this guy talks about how I'm evil and an abomination to his lord whenever he sees me, and treats me like a leper. You want me to get all Barney-riffic with him? Run up and give him a hug? Sorry man, I don't live in a fantasy land, but maybe I should, sounds like a super place you got going in your head. If the kid acts civilly to me, I will reciprocate. If when I walk up to him he doesn't try to kill me with his eyes, I'll say hi. I'll be friendly. But if the kid acts like an asshole, I'm not going to hang over his shoulder like a shadow, I'm just not an annoying prick like that.

There are two things you're mistaken in. You're following the pot-induced dillusion that I was trying to avoid, when I said, it's harder when you are actually involving. Realistically, if someone hated me I would find it very hard to act like their best friend. I probably wouldn't be an out and out asshole to them, but I wouldn't get all buddy buddy with them either. This is what you were annoying me with before with your whole, holier-than-thou, I would love someone and run up and give them flowers while they threatened to kill me and my family routine.

The second thing your missing is this. It's obvious that you are fairly intelligent, fairly logically. I sa I am too, but if you don't believe me I guess I can see why too. But the majority of people don't follow logic. Or intelligence. They follw their emotions. There are people who follow religion so adamantly. Logically, how can you follow something you can't see or prove so rigidly? Through emotion, people feel far before they think, and if someone FEELS you are an evil heretic, very little you do will change their mind before it's ready to change. Not everyone is as logically as you or I. If they were, would we even need to be discussing bigotry? If everyone thought everything out, would racism even exist?

 

Ugh, I changed because of other people, and events that occurred. What if the punk rock dudes hadnt invited me to their show when I was still in rotc? What if I hadn't been given the chance to hear their ideas because of this invitation. What if the people in ROTC and the people in the military whom i met because of ROTC hadn't turned out to be chauvonistic ass holes, or completely broken and friendless with pending divorces?

What I'm trying to say is that while its difficult to sit down and change someone's views in one sitting, or discussion, it is also difficult to build a house in one day. If you give up and decide never to try to change someone's mind again because you couldn;t change one person's mind the first time you tried to do it, then of course you'd think that because your track record would be 100% failure, but steady persistence and concrete reasons for them change would eventually get them considering the logical side of your argument. For example; what if there was a child who was born and raised in the KKK, and had been taught to hate black people ever since he was old enough to speak, but had never actually encountered a black man? When he finally did his first impression would be the face he would put on his interpretation of what euates to the lowest most vile abomination of "god's will on earth." What if this was a kindly old grandmother type character? Or what if this person was a police officer who returned him to his parents after he'd been lost in a strange neighborhood? A kind act would be a better argument than "thats stupid, its just skin pigment." Nothing you say can prepare a mind like that to change, it takes consistent experience that is contrary to his accepted ideas.

This idea that you won't make a move until he does won't change anything, because you know from the start that the other person won't do shit, therefore you accept the fact that he hates you, and admit that you don't care, but this sort of attitue solves nothing.

By the way, what pot induced delusion were you referring to? I've never smoked pot, and I rarely drink. Socialist, Anarchist, wanna be Punk, some dude that goes to community college and likes video games, whatever you want to think of me as, it doesnt mean I imbibe in narcotics.

 

Marajuana isn't a narcotic, it's a fern.

I'm sorry if reality makes you feel all sad and depressed. Yes I happen to agree, if everyone tried, or at least the majority, of people tried it would help. But most people don't try. There are some asshole Jewish people at my school, and if I were Jewish, any anti-semetic could just look at them and my work would be destroyed. I've tried to change people's minds before, 1 person can't do it alone. And the other people aren't all that willing to cooperate.

What your saying about the kid with his grandma is an extreme situation. The kid has never been exposed to black people, so that's where first impressions come in. And if I were a cop or a kindly old grandma type, maybe it would be easier for me to persuade people. But what happens when a kid who has never seen a black person before sees his first, just a regular kid who doesn't have the time to pick flowers and give them to everyone, doesn't always have the time to say hello, even though he tries. Do you say hello to every stranger you see? First black person the kid sees probably doesn't say hi to him, now what's the kid think? This isn't a sitcom, every cop on the squad isn't black. Yes there's a chance that the first black person the kid sees is a police officer, or a fireman, or he could be homeless, or just in a bad mood that day. Hell, the first black person a kid sees could be robbing someone. Don't interpret this as racism, but it's the truth, if I walk up to a kid and smile and another guy bumps into the kid and tells him to get the fuck out of the way, which is going to resonate more?

Let me disabuse you of something. Some causes ARE lost. We can't change everything, no matter how much we want to. I don't walk up to people who say they want to kick my ass, threaten to kick my ass, and dream about kicking my ass, and say hi let's be friends. I don't say I need him to do something first, I say I need him NOT to do something first. And that something is I need him to NOT be ready to jump on me the first wrong word I say. If he doesn't want to hear me, he won't. If he doesn't want to see me, he won't. I am not about to harrass someone just to make them like me. Yes, I'll say hi when I see him. If he looks at me like he wants to wring my neck, I'm not going much past hi.

I used to be quite an idealist, just like you, but my track record was still a whooping 0%. Going from conservative to liberal, isn't the same as stopping racism. As I've said, I don't try to put people off. If I see someone, I'll smile, say good morning. But I have something called a life, and it prohibits me from being the advocate against racism 24-7 that I otherwise would be. People don't WANT to be logical. A logical argument has a nasty tendency of shattering peoples misconceptions, and they don't like that.

And no, I don't particularly care if someone hates me. I don't know, if someone needs to be loved by everyone, maybe it just tears them up inside. I find myself just a tad more self-confident. If someone doesn't want to talk to me, they don't need to. If they don't feel like being courteous to me, fine, it's their right as an American citizen, and I don't like infringing on people's rights. The first amendment was designed specifically to protect unpopular ideas, and as idiotic as racism sounds when you logically look at it, they believe it, and my disdain for that idea makes it that much more important that people protect its right to exist.

 

I'm not an idealist, I'm just trying to use an extreme example to illustrate a poit more clearly. The point is not that you can change everyone, my point is that doing at least your part in stopping that kind of thought and behaviour is still worth while, even if there is only a slim chance of change.

 

Ah, what would become of the world if everyone thought it was impossible to change it?

 

Everyone can change the world. A mere birth is a change. Albeit a minor change.
*Wonders if he used "albeit" in the right context*

 

I think you did.

 

Yea you did, but that doesn't matter.

I'm not advocateing apathy towards the situation. All I'm saying is that 1. It's complete lunacy to expect to make a major impact if the rest of the world is hindering you. All over the airwaves people scream and yell about tolerance and I think that drives some people away from it. That's where that myth "the liberal media" came from. People who are bigots want to be bigots, maybe not at a young age, but when they reach maturity, if any of them mature, they make that choice. And I'm not about to go make a coalition of people to get this person to give up his/her ways. I won't antaganize them, I'll do my part, but if no one else is participating nothing is going to happen, and I'm not going to cry about it.

2. If that person truly feels that they believe the right thing, wouldn't it be a little sanctimonious for us to say, in a free country, that they aren't entitled to that? If they hate me, but they won't act, what am I worried about? I might not win a popularity poll, oh boo-whoo, but if they leave me to my own business, why should I disrespect their right to have their own beliefs?

 

Well attempting to make an impact is more worthwhile than not making any impact. The whole world is not working against you, its just that most of the worl seems to share your attitude.