European Backsplash

Recently, I've started really noticing some friction between some Americans and some Europeans (me, on occasion :smile: ).

Today the is An article on ABC news (which Lysa reads) discussing the subject.

It's really interesting, but only read it if you are not a jingoist, otherwise you'll just end up getting annoyed and proving its point :smile:

 

Huh. Until I read that article, I sure didn't notice any friction. But I don't get out much. Well, I do consider myself an American patriot, (not JINGOIST, by any means) but what I would like to know is, what do you EUROPEANS think? Fatman? What do you think? I know what the media thinks. I wanna hear from REAL people. I'll go first. I do think that that Parisian was a little harsh in describing the U.S. as part of the "axis of evil". But I do know that the U.S. cannot survive on it's own, (World War II) and I don't think that it's trying to or has been. The U.S. gov. may have gotten a case of tunnel-vision, but hey, this was the worst attack on our homeland soil since Pearl Harbor. What do you guys think?

Oh and please, for the love of all things holy PLEASE no one start flaming and taking a shit in this thread. (Fatman, you realise this is a potential volatile situation here, don't you? :smile: I have faith in the posters here. Except for hairy-backed midget boy, that is. :wink: )

 

Well, I think they were very harsh with that axis of evil thing, and wrong too. I also think the comment about obesity was a bit uncalled for and irrelevant!

Bearing in mind my extended family now is now comprised 50% US citizens, I'm fairly obviously not representative of the general populace, whose contact if mainly only as a result of toursim (in either direction) or the Internet.

Barring my family, I have found Americans to be both better and worse than the sterotypes. While working in America (Cleveland) a few years back, I was surprised at just how few the differences between our cultures were, and never encountered ANY arrogance.

More recently, perhaps since Sept 11th, perhaps even before that, while there still seem many fair-minded Americans of the sort I have some to expect, I have also had the misfortune to come into contact with quite a few arrogant ones.

The arrogance varies. The most common is maybe the "Greatest Nation on Earth" assumption, which seems to belittle the value of other nationalities and cultures without actually meaning to attack them. I'd call this being blinded by the national hype.

A less pleasant form, possibly more directly resultant from the Twin Towers bombing, is a kind of racism that I have seen a couple of times.

I had a VERY unpleasant conversation which all kicked off when a girl who was visiting us last Autumn said something like "When you see them on trains now it just makes you wonder whether they are terrorists." It turned out that by "them" she meant anyone with a middle-eastern look about them. Given that the guy in question was probably as much an American citizen, born and bred, as she was, I found it scary how readily she would persecute him based on his looks.

I think some of what the article might be referring to (with regard to British attitudes) comes from Americans not realising the real situation in Afghanistan. During much of the conflict, there were more UK troops in the field than US, and yet I still heard some Americans (one guy here, in particlular) going on about "American troops making the world safe while everyone else sits around and bitches."

Like I said, I don't speak for anyone else. I'm rarely in agreement with popular opinion. Also, I think it extremely unpalatable judging people I've never met based upon the actions of people who happen to share a country with them. For all I know, I may have met all the bad Americans in the world, and the rest of you all could be saints.

The article might have been a bit fairer if it had asked people what they thought of France and the UK. I'd be willing to bet words like "arrogant" and "nationalistic" would mentioned a few times :wink:

 

Hey this is a interesting post let me put in my two cents. I just read the article and have I am just going to adress the issues I see in the order they were presented in the article.

U.S. as Axis of Evil- please when the french and bush said it it was empty rhetoric. I gotta say I cringe when bush make one of his melodramatic pronoumcments.

The US and Euro have had strained ties since the inception of the this (US) country. War of Indipendance, French Indian war, war of 1812, Spanish American war, The monroe doctrine, Isolationism prior to WWI, the French screwing up the Legue of Nations, the treaty of versille (sp), WWII, the left in western europe and the cold war. Euro has alway had a stronger left than the states.

I think criticism of camp x-ray by Spain is kind of funny considering their own problems and investigations regarding police interrogation of ETA suspects. Yes the prisoners were shacked during processing, so what these guys have been trained to kill, precations have to be taken in their transportation.

My favorite are claims by europeans about US unilateralism and then our glorius leader comes and says he is a multilateralist my god what was he channelling Quale? But really was Europe multilateralist when it was colonizing the world in the 16th throught 20th centuries. How much autonomy was France giving Algeria (speaking of brutal treatment) or England I mean one word "opium wars" OK two. It is easy when you are no longer the dominant world force to want others to share. Does this mean the US sould not listen to other countires of course not. All I am saying is that in all honesty each country will look first to its own national interest. Once again lets look at France. We have potential EU expansion coming up for Poland, Czech Rep., and others. France knows they will loose huge agricultural subsidies to these central europeans if they get in so what do they do? They encourage Greece to demand Cyprus be on the same list of expansion countries or Greece will veto the whole expansion. Now EU rules would only let Greek Cyprus be in the EU not the part controled by Turkey which is not recognized by the UN. Of course the EU wants Turkey in. Nah I am not jingoistic I just think the French are spinless, back biting, German economy paracites. But that is just my opinion and I could be wrong. Whoa started getting a little Millerist there.

_________________
"It is as you think, you do not need to look, your leg is gone."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ThreeDogs on 2002-02-26 11:58 ]</font>

 

Okay, Three Dogs, I'm not going to dispute any of the historical points you made, although things like the War of Independence are dubious examples of strained European relationships, given the fact that some of Europe supported the USA during that war.

It also might be of questionable usefulness to compare US actions now to the actions taken by European countries 400 years ago, particularly when the countries in question freely admit that some of those actions, in hindsight, were wrong.

I do think, however, you may be missing the point. The article's main thrust, as I read it, was about the way Europeans are losing the feeling of solidarity that had with the USA a few months ago, and claims that the phenomenum is partly due to perceived arrogance and jingoism of Americans.

To attempt to refute such a hypothesis by essentially saying "Europeans stink. Look at all the bad things they have done. The US is the dominent world force, and Eurpoean countries are just spineless/parasites," really doesn't improve the situation.

 

And so it begins...............:smile:

 

and so it ... ends :smile:

I learned my lesson in the Military Tribunals. I will NOT be posting to this thread again. Why did I start it? I'm an IDIOT.

Anyone should feel free to come here, post what you like. Say the US rules. Say you're a superior species. Say that Europe is full of Ioo's. There is no way I'll be enticed in here ever again!

 

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! FATMAN!!

Please don't abandon this thread!! If anything it needs level-headed people like yourself!! I think it is a decent thread so far and I was very interested in what you had to say. (Oh and by the way, people who come in here with that "america kicks ass while every body else sucks" attitude, just kinda prove the article, doncha' think?)

Fatman, please don't leave.....

P.S. Hey, everybody look, I learned to type in italics and bold !

 

Wait a minute I never said Europeans stink.
My point was that Frnace demonstraits the same kind of national self interest in its manuver in the EU as the US does on its war against terrorism.
Also Algeria only gained its independance in the 1950's not 400 years ago.
If my post was taken as European bashing I apologize that wa not my intent.

 

Retard....here would be an example of friction - you stupid fucken yank! But that's not my true emotions.... right?

That Axis of Evil thing... he's insane.

 

DU said:
You see it with Australian treatment of aslum seekers, very popular here, but criticised elsewhere in the world.

Trust me, Underlord, not one in ten Americans will know what you're talking about. It's never mentioned in the media here.
And sure, we're killing terrorists for our own reasons. If somebody did to your country what they did to America, you'd be screaming for vengeance, too.
I'm no flag-waver. I never voted for a Bush, elder or younger, and I think Dubya's a crook. But a bunch of cock-suckers killed a lot of American civilians, and we're sending a message: we're angry, and we won't put up with this shit anymore.
The best thing for the rest of the world to do is just get out of the way.
It pisses me off that Dubya is using this situation to his politcal advantage, but, I admit it, I want revenge. Sorry about the innocents hurt in the process, but I guess they should have grown some balls and overthrown their oppressive government before it managed to kill American citizens (or any citizens).
I wish the leaders of the countries who protest US actions would consider what they would do if They were in our position. My guess is that they would want revenge, and the US would support them in their quest.

 

I agree whole-heartedly.
Fatman, even if you don't post here again I hope are still reading this. I am inclined to believe that your comment about "American troops making the world safe while everyone else sits around and bitches" was directed towards me. If that is the case then I guess I suck at getting my point across in the written word. I do tend to be a little biased on the side of America when these discussions come up. But that is what patriotism is all about. I have had the pleasure of spending some time in your country, as well as Norway, Italy, and a couple of Middle Eastern countries. I have also been blessed with the opprotunity to put up a couple of British sailors whose sub was docked at my base for a week. I have never met more easy-going, friendly, and unjudging people in my life.
I believe that Americans are the way we are because from the day that we start school we are taught about all the good things that we have done for the world and all the bad things that other countries have done to us. I personally believe that arrogance is a fitting word. It permeates our society. Why? Because we are taught to be that way. We don't here about the thousands of British and French soldiers that died on D-day. We quickly skim through the Battle of Britian in our History books. The only way we here about the Brits who cracked the Enigma code (which is the only damn reason we able to pull off D-day) is if we watch The Histroy Channel at 3:00AM. To us Granada was a joke, even though that conflict brought about a major turning point in Naval history (the first warship sunk by a nuclear submarine). So I guess arrogance isn't the right word. Maybe ignorance?
Flame me all you want, but I believe that President Bush has done reasonably well with the whole situation (with the exeception of a few statements). I do disagree with the current trend of isolating the rest of the world though.

 

Well, we're in agreement, then. I detest the way Dubya is turning this situation into a moral crusade. I cringe every time he says "evil-doers". His hyperbole is dangerous and annoying. I feel that his main objectives in the "war" on terrorism and in his administration are promoting the interests of big business, particularly the oil companies.
But that's politics for you.
I would have preferred it if Dubya had said, "We're going to kill every bastard responsible for the attack on our country. And their families. And then we're going to kill everyone who might be thinking about harming our country. Then we'll work over the people who don't like us. And all the while, I'll be pushing through my policies to benefit big business at the expense of the average American."
It would have been more honest.
But, as I said, I want revenge. I want Bin Laden's head on a stick, in the middle of Time's Square, so the public can spit on it. And I want the video of that action to be broadcast throughout the Middle East.
It would be another step in our plan leading to complete, total domination of the world.
One country at a time.
Then we'll impose our right wing, war-mongering ideology on everyone, and they'll wish the Taliban was back.

 

Dammit, Vlad, now you made me come back in here when I said I wouldn't, since I really don't want get things that wrong. I was NOT talking about you. I was talking about a guy who used to post here, called Eros Rex. I believe his specific comments were something like "Our boys are out there dying to protect your sisters and daughters, while you find ways to bitch about it."

I can see why you might have thought I was posting about you, because of that other thread, but I felt we came to a pretty amicable understanding there, and I certainly didn't start seeing you in a bad light because of it. Far from it - the debate seemed really civil and level-headed, regardless of how our opinions coincided or differed.

Feldon, I support the actions against the terrorists, but I have to say the way you presented it above, using phrases like "the best thing the rest of the world could do, is just stay the hell out of our way," when referring to international military actions and a war against terrorsist who have been attacking some of us for decades, is exactly the kind of thing that reduces my sympathy for the US cause.

Putting the culprit's head on a stick may well be the outcome of it all. It may be that some countries object to that. It may be that everyone supports it. That's all pretty much irrelevant as soon as the US says "We have no interest in what you think. We do as we see fit."

That's what bugs me. I think that' one of the major things that make people consider the US arrogant.

True, the bombing occured within the US and it is the US that has declared war on terrorists. However, actions against other soveriegn states are naturally international issues. The US has in the past been one of the strongest supporters of this idea, by taking an interest in disputes that intially did not involve them. If I understand correctly, the Vietnam war was such an issue.

Activities affecting the International status quo are of very great interest and importance to all countries. For the US to say "we're dealing with it, move along" to others is naturally going to cause, at least, nervousness and, possibly, outright hostility. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.

Even if we assumed that the USA is the most important country in the world - which naturally isn't going to be an opinion most countries will want to sign up to - surely it's still pretty obvious that the USA isn't more important than the rest of the world taken in its entirety?

 

A couple of notes:
1st: it is Europe's Godgiven right to critisize the US, we founded you, and we have more in common than either wants to admit :smile:.

2nd: it would be nice if the US government (dubya) would look a bit after their main allies (i.e. ratify some treaties (Kyoto) and not nuke some others (the coldwar one with the Russians), this will create some goodwill & will make for a better understanding and support of the US war on Terror (bah at that term).

For now I will support the US, but I sincerely hope they don't do anything stupid. f.e. Iran is a country in a powerstruggle between the fundamentalists and a progressive group - the US is setting this back quite hard by constantly shitlisting Iran (which also is one of the most important countries in the region).

 

Sheriff, thanks for coming back. I guess that it was just my arrogance to believe that you were posting about me. That would assume that someone actually gives a shit about me. LOL! As I write this I am listening to a radio show done by a very right-wing Republican. If you want to check it out, you can catch it at http://www.warroom.com. This is just a small part of this big problem.

 

Hmm ... The War Room is also the web forum where people talk about strategies hunting down the devil and his minions, and making war on alien civilisations. How apt :grin:

BTW, Vlad, I realise you are probably waiting for me to add a post to the RPG forum. SOrry it is taking so long. I have a very bust schedule at the moment. It'll be done by tonight, maybe, tomorrow at the latest.

DU, the topic title was my little jokey. The ABC article was originally titled (or maybe tag lined) 'European Backlash.' I dunno about where you are, but here 'backsplash' is something that happens when you stand to close to the wall. It's messy and unpleasant and easy to avoid with a little bit of self-control.