Enchanting Items (Reincarnation NOT gravedigging)

Discussion in 'Arcanum 2 Suggestion Forum' started by FourHorsemen, Apr 7, 2005.

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  1. FourHorsemen

    FourHorsemen Member

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    Well I won't get into the specifics or the merits of this but assuming there is a way to do so I would submit that the system would have to allow for an odd balance between Magic and Technology whereby a character would use certain known spells to enchant items forged through techincal skills...call the whole thing Technomancy or something..I actually wrote this down somewhere....I'lll have to look it up.

    Seeing as most magical items have some sort of effect that is similar to an existing spell, perhaps that would be the way to go....

    Fire Based Magic
    --------------------
    Inferno Hammer

    Air Based Magic
    ------------------
    Sword of Air

    Anyway...I'll dig up the paper where I came up with this and get back to ya'll-
     
  2. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    Now, this post would be relevant, but face it, Arcanum 2 isn't coming. and if it is, it's fan made, hence restriceted by the same limits as arcanum has. :(
     
  3. Blinky969

    Blinky969 Active Member

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    Well... we could hack Arcanum and hex edit the programming until it either works or deletes itself...
     
  4. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    Now, we both know that the chanse off succeding is less than 1 to 1 000 000 000 000 each try.
     
  5. Blinky969

    Blinky969 Active Member

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    I guess that will take awhile. I'll get the beer.
     
  6. FourHorsemen

    FourHorsemen Member

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    Best thing to do would be to start with some very simple things and work from there...like decidinga bloody storyline for instance.

    Now seeing as how certain things in the game are flagged to the completion/or not of certain quests or tasks....the continuation would have to take this into account.
     
  7. Xz

    Xz Monkey Admin Staff Member

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    Did you even read blinkys post?
     
  8. Blinky969

    Blinky969 Active Member

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    Making a new module is easy, just go into World Ed and throw together a map, add some scripts, including quests, etc. I don't want to demean anyone else's work, but the work itself isn't that hard, it's just tedious. Rewriting the magic-tech mechanisms in the game's executable itself is slightly more complicated. It would probably be even harder than just making your own new game. Because while certain resources are available, you need to siphon through files organized using someone else's logic, that someone else not even around to help you manuever, then decode his person scripting mechanism, edit all the things you wish to change, break open the game mechanics with a hex editor, change what you can that way, break open what you can't with a binary editor, fix that how you would like it, then you need to back up and run a test. And if something fails you can look get to flip a coin and decide if your edit is the problem, or if it's another file being affected as a result of your edit.
     
  9. FourHorsemen

    FourHorsemen Member

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    Binlky has said it all..fiddling with the inner workings of the game is pretty damm rsiky as you'll never know what might happen.

    Perhaps if the entire game had been made with the Editor...100% made...it would be easier LOL
     
  10. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    That being said... I'm a sucker for RPG Maker 2003. I haven't even done the first village yet, as I want to make things horribly complicated and like each and every aspect of the game to have multiple sollutions and paths... then, when I playtest, and stuff doesn't work, I have to scroll through what seems like miles of commands to find out exactly which variable isn't quite where it should...

    I estimate that, on average, every hour I spend working equals one minute of actual playing... that's hardly economical.
     
  11. FourHorsemen

    FourHorsemen Member

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    true...I found the same thing happened to me when playing with RPGM
     
  12. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Me and my brother have renamed the program to "Spel som aldrig blir klara", ie "Games that are never finished". Quite true, I think. :)
     
  13. FourHorsemen

    FourHorsemen Member

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    Makes you wonder how games like Zelda ever got off the drawing board
     
  14. TONGSyaBASS

    TONGSyaBASS Member

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    Some of this is more appropriate for older threads but I'll post it here as people seem to get reprimanded for 'grave digging' even if it does lead to some life being breathed into a quiet forum.

    MagiTech = Heresy in Arcanum setting
    The entire game reinforces this with every other quest, every bit of history you learn about arcanum, all of it says Magic + Tech is a nono.

    Enchanting simple things you make with a tech skill seems possible. E.g. a forged sword uses the most basic natural laws for its application - narrow edge + force = cuts. So really the sword is not tech, it just 'is'.
    This type of natural law is used by everything. Magic bullet uses magic to summon a rock and fire it at high speed but the damage is done by the force of the rock striking your victim. Force causing damage is a natural law so even magic makes use of this.

    So in this way basic tech (which I think doesn't really count as tech because the most basic natural laws are everywhere and exist in everything) can exist with magic.

    However items which are active tech (steam engine, complex mechanisms, etc) cannot exist with magic as they make use of more complex natural laws which aren't everywhere in nature (there are no animals which use steam driven pistons).

    But when does magic stop being magic?
    If I cast magical fire on some trees they are engulfed in magical flames. When I stop casting the trees continue to burn so the flames are now burning using the trees as fuel. These flames are now natural flames, even though they were originally called into existence by magic. (I believe this but you might think differently).
    So could magic be used in conjuction with tech at a safe distance?
    e.g. Powerful mages open a rift through which lightning comes shooting out. There is large metal plate in front of the rift which conducts the lightning down a wire into a nearby city so powering all the lights and machines in the city. Free and clean electricity.
    But is the lightning simply electricity or does it remain magical lightning even when free of the mages influence (directed by the natural laws of metal conduction rather than the will of the mages)?



    As for metal which blocks magic or tech influence I quite like the idea of this but I'm not sure how well it fits.
    Would it need to be inherently magical?
    Imagine an elf living in a tech city. He gets terrible headaches and sickness from this so he lines his clothing with a special mineral which protects his magical flesh from the restricting natural law which surrounds him.
    This material does not produce a magical influence it simply blocks tech influence. The material may trap some of the essence of those who die around it. Their will is left in it, trying to assert themselves in the world of the living. This magical will is enough to block tech influences entering but it does nothing to stop magic influences.

    For the tech version it could be a metal which is so pure and refined that it is stable on a quantum level (insert victorian equivalent of quantum). It was refined from ancient ore which existed before the races of arcanum brought magic into the world. This metal could be used to plate machines and so make them resistant to magical influences but it would not stop their tech influence from spreading out.
    The material could be used to line the walls of prison cells for mages. This would stop them exerting an influence outside of the prison walls. However they could still cast a few fireballs inside the prison and burn their way out.

    Yikes this is getting long...
    I haven't had an arcanum conversation since I bought it 4 years ago so please excuse me....

    1 last thing.
    The earlier threads which talked about magitech also talked about the future of arcanum, if it would have nuclear weapons, etc.
    Our world has nuclear power and supercomputers because we have no magic.
    If a bunch of people started to cast magic spells then natural law would weaken over the entire planet. A few 0 / 1 might get muddled up in computers, nuclear reactors might produce too much and then too little power, digital clocks might run 1 millionth of a second too slowly, etc.
    If more people learned magic then nuclear plants would explode, computers would crash more often, digital watches would skip whole hours...
    Eventually we would go back to using clockwork watches not so vulnerable to such influences.
    Basically what I am saying is that arcanum will never reach the 21st century unless every last magical being and artifact is destroyed. The technological progress of arcanum will flounder in the steam era or just slightly beyond that. Because of background magical influences scientific experiments might never give the same result twice. Reproducibility is essential for scientific conclusions to be drawn and progress to be made.
    Tech will never advance very far without disposing of magic first. As tech is in its infancy there is no overall desire to destroy magic as magic can do things tech cannot.
    It's a catch 22.

    -breath breath breath-
    Ok I got that off my chest.
     
  15. Blinky969

    Blinky969 Active Member

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    Hence, this is an Arcanum 2 Suggestion. And Steam is not a law of nature, pressure is, and it's evident everywhere. Squids move through propelling water though their bodies, just like a jetski. Are jetskis active tech?

    You can't parse physics and chemistry and say which isn't natural enough simply based on the complexity of it's subject matter; studying air currents is more complicated than studying the mechanics of a ball, but both are physics and evident in the natural world.

    Also, in terms of the game mechanics, tell me how to script "tech enough" and maybe I'll try, but barring that I don't see the feasibility. In terms of flavor, I recall the Tarantian having some article about how a scientist in Stillwater is experimenting with a magic gun.

    Our world has supercomputers and nukes because someone invented them. Please don't start applying game ideas to real life, I'll be forced to break out the taser and the ritalin.

    And as a final note, gravedigging doesn't breath new life into a quiet forum, it tries to answer a question answered months ago. If you read a topic and are interested, but the date is months old, just start a new thread. Then you'll not only be "breathing new life", you won't risk anyone complaining. And if it's all that imperitive that you have the previous thread for reference, just add a link to the old thread in your new one.
     
  16. TONGSyaBASS

    TONGSyaBASS Member

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    My psyche is firmly rooted in reailty so I am capable of comparing arcanum to the real world without thinking that arcanum is the real world. If it bothers you then pretend I said ''If all the magic in arcanum was destroyed and then they were given 200 years and then they developed nuclear power and digital watches and then magic started to reappear and then....etc''.

    However I think it is a bit ironic that you give 2 real world examples to back up your argument and then criticise me for doing so.

    I never mentioned 'steam law' what I mentioned was steam engines and steam driven pistons. Not laws, simply devices.

    The act of expelling water is not tech. So squid (or a jetski that used magic to force out water) would not be tech. However the internal combustion engine that powers the impeller of a jetski is tech.

    In arcanum natural law is everywhere in everything. Natural law is not the same as tech, if it was everything would be tech. To live you need to respire, maintain blood pressure, generate ionic action potentials, diffusion occurs, atomic forces stop your body flying apart, gravity stops you whizzing into space, etc. Therefore life = natural law and if natural law = tech then all life is tech. This is obviously not true as magic exists in arcanum.
    Tech reinforces natural laws but that does not mean natural law is tech. So although squid (like all creatures) use natural law to move that does not make them tech, they only use natural law they do not reinforce it. The same can be said of 'simple tech' like a sword, it only uses natural law it does not reinforce it so therefore it is not really tech it simply 'is'. A jetski engine on the other hand is tech and not only uses natural laws but it also reinforces them in the process.

    I agree entirely. You cannot separate out physical laws in the real world. However I am talking about arcanum which does not have our physical laws it has 'natural laws' and 'magick'. We don't.
    Should I break out the taser for you? :D



    P.S. I haven't done any modding yet so I can't help you with the scripting question but give me 5 weeks (when my exams finish) and I'll give it a go. However off the top of my head I think the simplest thing to do would be to have a dialogue with a magic shop owner which checks if you have item X and if you know spell A. If you select the option then item X is taken from you (unenchanted sword) and item Y is given to you (enchanted sword).
     
  17. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    The very idea of tech and magick in Arcanum is that anything pre-medieval (respiratory functions quite clearly predates the dark ages) is neutral, anything post medieval is technological and magick is just plain supernatural.
     
  18. TONGSyaBASS

    TONGSyaBASS Member

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    Yeah that's the succinct, simple way to put it.
    But how can you have a good argument if you stick to simplicity? :wink:
     
  19. Blinky969

    Blinky969 Active Member

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    Simplicity is the best argument 90% of the time.

    You were inferring that a balanced sword can be enchanted because it's not really tech. In terms of game conditions not really tech doesn't exist.

    You said, there are no animals that use steam driven pistons, no there are not. Tech can't "reinforce natural laws" since it relies on science. A gun cannot "reinforce" the way a bullet flies, it only applies natural laws in a way that suits it's purpose. The back of the Arcanum manual is filled with Newtonian and other basic physics examples, and the effect of magick on them, and how magick causes reverberations that disrupt balance, a tech causes a calming effect on the natural laws. It doesn't change them, or reinforce them, it neutralizes latent magickal energy in the air and allows them to function efficiently.

    You starting musing on the effects of magic in this world, I quite jokingly called you crazy. Good job taking a joke jackass.

    If you want to delve into the effect of modern on modern day technology fine, you're absolutely wrong. You ever finish the god damn game? Vendrigroth existed when magic was around, all signs point to a fairly advanced society. Tech neutralizes magical forces, if a scope rifle has some high tech, think it's 60 or 70 TA for optimal use, how much tech would a nuclear reactor have? Or even a pc? The calming effect would be enough to negate the effects of some spells being thrown around.

    I know exactly what you're talking about, you made the fucking comparison to this world and magic, so don't get fucking cute.
     
  20. FourHorsemen

    FourHorsemen Member

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