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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jungle Japes, Oct 2, 2011.

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  1. TheDavisChanger

    TheDavisChanger Well-Known Member

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    That bit always confused me. Jesus isn't God, but he's the son of God, which is God so Jesus is God except he's not really God, but part of God. Then there's the Holy Spirit who fits in somewhere.

    When I accepted that, I had to resolve that Jesus was king of the Jews, Jesus was a Jew, but Jews don't believe in Jesus so Jesus didn't believe in himself? C'mon Jesus, think you can!
     
  2. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

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    Given that yhwh means I am, it is grammatically impossible that Jesus said he wasn't.
     
  3. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Trinitarianism lacks scriptural support as far as the writing in red goes. Then again, the same could be said about huge swathes of what the kids call Christianity these days.
     
  4. Xyle

    Xyle Member

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    • "I and my Father are one." John 10:30

      "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9

    You must not have read the gospel of John:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

    I could have sworn you have said that you were God. Shouldn't you have written that you're not Jesus?

    This is a generalization and should not be used with your logic. I have met a Jew that believed in Jesus. Went to the same church as her for a few years.
     
  5. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Well, in my private life, I said I was the Christ. Due to my christian background, and reading of the gospels, I inferred that I was also God, so I said here that I was god. I have since denied all divinity and see myself as just another guy who occasionally has delusions of grandeur as a symptom of a much more serious psychosis, which, for the most part, has subsided. Unfortunately, it didn't subside until after I alienated myself around my actively christian friends by having an episode.
    I could've pointlessly restated why I was having trouble understanding anything readable, but I instead chose to instigate something I knew was really stupid (as well as allowing me to mention David Carradine), as defending oneself logically against a troll is pointless. So, after Smuel showed disdain by invoking Jesus, I changed the subject again. Simple, really.
     
  6. TheDavisChanger

    TheDavisChanger Well-Known Member

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    Christ.
    Where is the flaw in using this generalization with my logic?

    EDITED for more readable flow.
     
  7. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    A person can have Jewish parents, and be Jewish by heritage, but having Christian beliefs means they aren't practicing Judaism. Therefore, Jews do not believe Jesus was the foretold messiah, and if someone says they're a Jew while you meet them in Church, they can literally only be Jews in name. Kindof like my grandfather, except he didn't follow Christian beliefs and in general didn't practice his religion. He also circumvented part of the kosher deal by cooking unclean animals outside of his house in an electric skillet, because he thought what was really important was that it wasn't being prepared inside.
     
  8. TheDavisChanger

    TheDavisChanger Well-Known Member

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    Christ.

    When I talk about Jews, do I have to qualify what kinds of Jews I am talking about?
     
  9. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    No, because if someone practices Judaism, they're a Jew. If they believe Jesus is the messiah, they're not. By saying Jews don't believe in Jesus, the only people you'll upset are people who claim Jewry and practice Christian beliefs, Or Xyle.
     
  10. Smuelissim0

    Smuelissim0 New Member

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    The semantic confusion you're all having is because the word "Jew" can refer to both a set of religious practices as well as a distinct lineage. If your mother was Jewish then you are considered Jewish, regardless of whether you are a "practising Jew". On the other hand, a gentile can covert to Judaism, but still wouldn't technically be Jewish in the genetic sense.

    Jonathan Miller said it best: "I'm not really a Jew, just Jew-ish."

    In other words...

    Yes.
     
  11. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    I no longer see the point in arguing, as you brought up the problem yourself; semantics. We may as well argue the difference between any number with an infinitely repeating 9 after a decimal point and the next highest whole number.
     
  12. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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  13. TheDavisChanger

    TheDavisChanger Well-Known Member

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  14. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    @Xyle

    Good points. However, apart from the passage from John (which isn't one of Jesus' sayings, is it?) none of those quotes directly imply trinitarianism. If Jesus = God, why would he differentiate himself from the Father? What is the point of making such a distinction if they are the same entity? If the Father and the Son are the same God, then why does only the Father know the exact date of the apocalypse? How could Jesus forsake himself on the cross? Why does Jesus reaffirm the oneness of God through the shema when asked what the greatest commandment is? Wasn't Tertullian the first dude ever to even talk about this shit?
     
  15. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Blah. I'm as wrong as any of the Jews I know.
     
  16. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

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    What's the verse where people ask Jesus "who are you?" and he replies "I am..." and they're all like "BLASPHEMY!" and start stoning him, and Jesus runs off and hides until they go away?

    So there ya go, he admitted it.

    P.s. A jew who believes Jesus was/is the messiah is known as a messianic jew.

    P.p.s. Re-railing, I've been chuckling about your anecdote for days, Japes. Here's hoping that was your last hostile encounter. Qaplah!
     
  17. Smuelissim0

    Smuelissim0 New Member

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    It seems remarkably short-sighted to use the phrase "I am" to mean "God". Whenever anyone replies to the question "Who are you?" they're likely to start with the phrase "I am...". e.g. "I am just a carpenter from Nazareth." And then everyone starts shouting "Blasphemy" and throwing things after the first two words. Was it part of some kind of vindictive practical joke? No wonder everyone hates the Jews.
     
  18. ytzk

    ytzk Well-Known Member

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    Thankyou for spelling out the subtle humour implied in my punctuation, smuel.

    You're pretty sharp, ain't ya?
     
  19. Smuelissim0

    Smuelissim0 New Member

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    Oh. See, I thought there WAS a verse like that.

    Subtlety, eh? Tsch.
     
  20. rosenshyne

    rosenshyne New Member

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    Spiders are the devil's handmaidens. Also, poor JJ. Deployments suck.
     
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