The Paradox

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Grossenschwamm, Oct 17, 2010.

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  1. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    In that case, it's the definitions themselves and our current understanding of reality that's at fault, not reality itself.

    EDIT: Scales, I think you're missing the point here.
     
  2. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    For realsies? In what way?
     
  3. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    While ytzk's example with the triangle is very much flawed, he used it to demonstrate that our understanding of the world tends to break down once you have more dimensions than the usual four. I mean, I couldn't even begin to comprehend what a fifth dimension would be, or what good it would do.

    Just to make one thing clear though, and here I'm all with Scales, triangles, by definition, are always two-dimensional. What ytzk described wouldn't be a triangle at all, it would be the geometrical equivalent to a slice of cake!
     
  4. Mesteut

    Mesteut New Member

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    Riemannian Geometry is perfectly valid when you factor in gravitational curvature of spacetime. What you perceive to be a perfect triangle may not be what it seems.

    Yet as a concept, yes, a triangle is a two dimensional shape with inner angles equal to 180 degrees.
     
  5. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    I understand your point; but what I was saying was that the addition of higher dimensions means shit-all for some things, and merely refines others.

    Generally, things that are confined to a certain number of dimensions aren't affected when we discover further dimensions, so not all of our understanding of these things breaks down, and the parts that seem to are either later amended by further discoveries or are proven wrong.

    But the idea is that as we only observe a three dimensional reality, and move through the fourth dimension linearly, the lines seem straight; which to us, is the equivalent of being straight. So when the lines are straight... blah, blah, blah... properties of a triangle... [fancy geometric bullshit]... etc.

    So ytzk's example would give a two dimensional triangle for a two dimensional being, as it wouldn't be able to observe the third dimension; and a fourth dimensional shape would appear three dimensional to us.
     
  6. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    It's not that the four-dimensional shape would appear to be three dimensional; all we can see of four-dimensional shapes are their shadows, which are three-dimensional objects. As for the fifth dimension, any point in such a field would be the time-inverse of a four-dimensional point, so the fifth dimension is the realm of all possible futures.
     
  7. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    ... in the sense that the plain would seem flat.

    ... as we can't observe the fourth dimension. So it would appear three dimensional; but not as an object neglecting that dimension. So, yes, as a type '3D shadow' of the object; but not turning it into a simple three dimensional shape, as the shadow of a sphere that appears as a circle.
     
  8. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me, as I thought I actually had something to say.
     
  9. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jMMKceXeExY?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jMMKceXeExY?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
     
  10. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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  11. Zanza

    Zanza Well-Known Member

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    So what created the world that Zanza Observed?
     
  12. magikot

    magikot Well-Known Member

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  13. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    I already told you, it was you. If you're observing it, it's the world according to you.
     
  14. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Please pardon me for my ignorance, but aren't your arguments all based on solipsism?
     
  15. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    Could it be what I said earlier? That things exist, but not as we see them, until we observe them. So something is there, but it doesn't taste, feel, smell, sound, or appear as it does to you while it's not being observed; so it's more an interpretation than a creation.

    As for solipsism, I agreed with Descartes up to that point; but from his third meditation onwards, it's just downhill.
     
  16. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    Not having any knowledge of solipsism until you mentioned it, no.
    All experience relies on an observer, be that observer you or someone else. We can't enter another's mind and experience their lives, so how are we to say what they see?
     
  17. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    But are there real things that we observe and real things that we don't? If two people experience some object in contrasting ways, are they both right, both wrong, or is one right and the other's wrong? Do things have an objective reality, even if we don't experience it?
     
  18. Muro

    Muro Well-Known Member

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    Truth is objective, perceiving truth is subjective.

    If I was one to place quotes in my signatures, that one would be there. Beautiful.
     
  19. Zanza

    Zanza Well-Known Member

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  20. wayne-scales

    wayne-scales Well-Known Member

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    That's what I would've said before all this quantum mechanics talk; but now I'm not sure what I think...
     
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