Killing! Magic! Rant! Incoherence!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dark Elf, Nov 1, 2007.

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  1. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    In most RPG's, you are pretty much forced to play as a hardcase murderous lunatic. After all, the standard fare in most quests is to simply enter a dungeon/warehouse/mansion and hack your way to the foozle at the end of it. No options. Supposedly, "adventuring" literally translates to "butchering the population of a smaller city as a daily routine". Why isn't there any other options? Why can't I use my alchemical prowess to put the guards asleep? Why can't I lure them away with my enchanted bardsong? Scare them away with illusions? In short, why can't I play a pacifist?

    This is something Bloodlines did pretty well. There was no xp for sheer killing, meaning that you didn't miss out on something if you distracted the people guarding that door by throwing a soda can into an alley. In the quest areas, you didn't explore every nook and cranny like a homocidal maniac on the hunt for another couple of bipedal xp. Instead, you had several logical reasons to avoid combat. You had the Masquerade the uphold, maybe you simply wanted to avoid getting hurt and, of course, the quests often called for nonviolent solutions. Try to apply some realism to RPG's (or believability, if you don't like the sound of "realism"); you've been sent by the Thieves Guild to steal the Ruby of Arcane Prowess from the Wizard's Tower, why would you necessarily want to kill everyone inside when you could simply use stealth and deceit? I mean, if nothing else, don't you think the wizards would want to investigate why all of sudden one of their chapters had been wiped out? Also, should you be spotted by the guards, it's not very likely they'd charge full head and skewer you with every sharp object they could possibly get their hands on either, but rather, they'd probably try to arrest you or something (and then you'd be incarcerated, which is either game over or a possibility to escape).

    And if I want to be violent, why must I KILL people? Why can't I simply knock them unconcious and tie them up? While clearly lacking in other areas ToEE is one of the precious few games that allows for subdual damage but morbidly enough, you don't seem to get any xp before the creature in question rests in pieces.

    Another thing which nags me is magic, and I guess it's correlated with the compulsive killing. For all their often impressive repertoire of spells, spellcasters in most CRPG's really only do three things; they deal damage, they buff, and they heal. Furthermore, the scaling inherent in these games means that as you progress, most spells become utterly useless a few levels ahead (I mean, did you ever use spells like Acid Splash or Heal Minor Wounds past level 1, or even then?). For me, this rips away much of the "magic" in magic, making it more a question of mechanics and the continual increase in damage die than unlocking the mysteries of the universe Sadly, it makes dabbling in magic to learn a few useful tricks is pretty much pointless, as that magic missile of yours won't stand a chance against the hordes cyberdragons you'll be fighting on a daily basis once you're a Fighter 18/Blackguard 17/Red Dragon Disciple 20.
    I've recently gotten into "Death Gate", which is a neat little 95' DOS game based on the Death Gate Cycle series of books by Weiss & Hickman. Point and click adventure, yes, but you've gotta love the magic system. For example, there is one instance where you have to cast a "Heat" spell on a machine so it warms up to critical levels, setting off an alarm which distracts the guard so you can sneak past. There are other spells that allow you to travel inside paintings and whatnot, and that's just the cool and mysterious stuff magic should allow you to do. In such a system, sacrificing some combat manouvers for some magic insight would be something interesting.

    Incoherent rant +1.
     
  2. Frigo

    Frigo Active Member

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    The explanation is pretty simple: It costs much more to invent creative quest than to put some monsters there. Most RPGs don't even have thief route and quests. Fine-tuned and balanced (and creative) magic system is even more rare.


    BTW, I have this little precious idea of mine to make an isometric RPG engine with simple, intuitive scripting and whatnot, and make a subversion server where anyone can modify the main world.

    I know it's beyond impossible to whip up a good engine single-handedly, but hey, a man can dream :D
     
  3. Spuddy

    Spuddy New Member

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    I'm too busy to post more, and just have time to add that in (most of) my RPGs, this is still following the "Good" way, despite the wholesale slaughter. (As long as you don't whack a select few important-to-plot-line people.)

    Wow, that was fun. Most post more sometime...
     
  4. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    Actually, I think a lot of these things would come about naturally if only combat had some common sense to it.

    Getting cut by a sword hurts like a bitch, and it carries a very real possibility of injuring you for life. Sure, if you're wounded beyond the capabilities of band aid, restorative magic/cybernetics would do the trick, but that's expensive like hell, and even if you know the appropriate spells/technological expertise the components required are rare and likely to dig a hole deeper than your pocket. In this environment you'd be terrified of entering combat. Meaning, that when combat happens, you'd have to think, and it would be exciting like hell. You'd try to utilize advantages, instead of just standing there in the middle of the fray; why not jump up on that table and use that spear of yours to keep the enemy at a distance? Heck, there would actually be a point in fleeing from combat.

    For this to work, fights would have to be few and far between. You'd be actively trying to avoid violence whenever possible, there'd actually be incentive to send the rogue on a scouting mission, or use whatever dirty trick available to reach your goals.

    But the kids don't want that. I call it the failure of the free market.
     
  5. rroyo

    rroyo Active Member

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    The Ultima series used this. The reagents needed for the spells did a great job of keeping your fortune to a minimum and made me think twice about who to battle.
     
  6. GrimmHatter

    GrimmHatter Active Member

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    I think alot of it also has to do with enemy AI.

    This would be great to do in a game, but as in most cases, the enemy AI is just too stupid to be held at a distance because all they ever do in every game is ass rush you with wreckless abandon. And they can get away with it too because there is always more of them than you, so even if Guard A commits virtual suicide by impaling himself on your spear, as long as he's gotten just one hit on you he's done his job since there will always be more behind waiting to get there hits in and eventually kill you. And voila! Instant difficulty gradient. Lazy ass devs.

    But keeping on topic with the OP, the Thief series was great at making you want to avoid combat all together. Sure Garret was a god amongst thieves, but he sucked duck ass at combat and could easily get slaughtered by just one lowly guard face to face. This really influenced the player to stick to the original theme of the game: sneak around without being seen and steal shit. And there were always many different ways to get from point A to point B in a mission. I still go back and play Deadly Shadows and find different ways through every mission. An open window here, a heavy crate to drop on a guard's head there. I wish this kind of innovation would show up in other genres of games, or just other RPG games in general.
     
  7. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, an ideal RPG can not exist due to the extreme amount of time, effort and enginuity required to present the player with even the most menial choices in how the game is played. Also because the target audience of such games wants combat, combat, and more combat*. They don't want realism, they want action. They don't want to have to use their brains to come up with a clever solution, they want to equip their UberSword +5 and overpower foe after foe. Because this is what the target audience wants, the evil publishers make sure it's what they get, nevermind what the developers want.

    *This is why I hate MMORPGs. I want to be able to walk more than five feet without getting harrassed by monsters or brigands.
     
  8. GrimmHatter

    GrimmHatter Active Member

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    ^ That is a sad, sad, yet entirely true point. I was looking for the reason MMORPGs are so unappealing to me and you just answered it. All anyone wants to do these days is power game and hack & slash and level grind. There's so little finesse to game development anymore. Hell, I'm guilty of it myself sometimes without even realizing it. That's probably why I'm rarely ever any lower than level 17 or 20 before visiting Bates' mansion for the first time. I just grind and whore up exp from random encounters in haze so I can feel that sense of domination whenever I tackle a mission or attack an enemy. That probably subconciously says something about me as a person.
     
  9. DarkFool

    DarkFool Nemesis of the Ancients

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    I must confess that I love Diablo and Diablo 2, and've made many many Diablo runs [in Diablo 2, of course]... but I liked playing a mild trader in Morrowind [I picked up a mod that changed the prices of items through different areas], taking items from one city to the next, fighting only what I couldn't jump/run away from...
     
  10. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    I believe there's a difference between, say, games like Diablo and games like Fallout. Diablo never tried to be something that it wasn't. It didn't promise profound dialogue, choices and consequences, in-depth character backgrounds or the possibility to join the Prime Evils. It was a roguelike dungeon romp, all about looting and grinding, and it did it splendidly. Fallout was mean to be a completely different flavor, and managed to be something of a masterpiece at what it did. Yes, there was the possibility to grind and hunt phat l3wt, though the sense of urgency due to the time limit may have stymied that somewhat. What it did present however, was several ways to reach victory, including pacifist support to the point where it's theoretically possible to finish the game without having traded a single punch or fired a single bullet. This may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's sure nice that the option is there, and that the only way to reach victory isn't the slightly overdone "hack yourself through hordes of enemies until you reach the main foozle" concept.
     
  11. Jungle Japes

    Jungle Japes Well-Known Member

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    DE, Fallout 2 doesn't have a time limit, just a false sense of urgency. No matter how many years of gameworld time it takes you to get the damned G.E.C.K., the village will have just died by the time you get back. So you have all the time you need to complete every mission, scrump every bitch, stockpile enough weapons to arm the Soviet Union, and then go through and systematically destroy every form of life in the gameworld.
     
  12. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    I meant the original Fallout. Never played Fallout 2 past the Temple of Trials or whatsitname. :D

    Besides, my point was essentially to point to a difference in focus between games.
     
  13. GrimmHatter

    GrimmHatter Active Member

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    Fallout was infested with so many bugs I wonder if the pacifist road to victory was really intentional.



    I'm kidding of course...
     
  14. DarkFool

    DarkFool Nemesis of the Ancients

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    I only played FO2. I loved it. I generally did the "blow shit to pieces" method. .50 cal makes everybody 'splode when you're in turn-based!
     
  15. GrimmHatter

    GrimmHatter Active Member

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    Fallout was the first game in which I killed an entire town of people. It instantly became my favorite after I realized I could do that. I'm not an evil person like that, nor was the character I was playing, but it was refreshing to know the opportunity was there if I wanted to. To this day, I still judge the greatness of an RPG by how many people in town you can kill, and then I go and lament on internet forums over the lack of innovation in these same games in the face of too much emphasis on combat.
     
  16. Dark Elf

    Dark Elf Administrator Staff Member

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    It isn't an RPG if you can't kill any children!
     
  17. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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    That's a good point. Most RPG's lack children. I haven't played Fallout. Are there killable children in Fallout?
     
  18. Grossenschwamm

    Grossenschwamm Well-Known Member

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    The original version of Fable had children running about in the less formal towns, like Knothole Glade and Hook Coast. In these towns, you're allowed to unsheathe your weapons and kill people. But, none of the developers thought the game testers would kill everyone...as a result, the entire towns were killed, children and all. That's why you only see children in Bowerstone anymore. To be honest, I think they should've left the kids in. It makes the towns without kids seem sterile.
     
  19. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Well-Known Member

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  20. Blinky969

    Blinky969 Active Member

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