Evolution of a 'Jolly Old Elf'

it's alright. i can justify my faith. probably in the same way you do...

i believe in God because i can.

*smiles sweetly* bite me.

 

So Might Makes Right?

 

I've never stated that I'm an atheist, what I was trying to say is how did she come to this decision that she could never be moved from her own viewpoints? That kind of dogmatism is what is so wrong with religion today, its not a philosophy or a way of life, its an excuse to be philosophically close minded, and justification to do as you please. Dogmatism is the same as nihilism in my opinion, the refusal to consider the viewpoints of another human being solely because your parents have been taking you to a building to listen to some priest every sunday since you were 4 is a sad excuse to worship. Of ocurse what good has worship ever done for anyone but those who do it? I'm glad you feel morally justified in everything you do and say rosenthyne, it must be nice.

(clarification, I dont care what you worship, if you were an atheist I'd argue as well. the evidence we've been given that there is a god is just as strong as the evidence that there is none. I'm merely speaking against her stringent, unmoving belief in something.)

 

I have to disagree with you there, Sleek. Atheism is based on the lack of evidence of a deity. Any evidence against a deity would need a deity to be found. I know it's extreely hard to understand* so just ignore this comment.


*Or more likely I'm just fucked up in the head

 

There is no scientific evidence that a deity exists by the standards of a christian fundamentalist, but given the nature of deism, why would it need to reveal itself to us if one DID exist?

Just because man will never reach the center of the galaxy in your lifetime does not mean the center of the galaxy is a mirage.

You said to prove that a deity doesnt exist would require that one did (at least thats my interpretation of it) and that just doesn't make sense. I know you'll probably want to clarify that statement a little more thoroughly.

 

I'm honestly can't be bothered compiling my many, many thoughts on this topic into a post right now, but I'd just like to mention that Hogfather and Small Gods, both by Terry Pratchett, make an interesting (and a little more lighthearted) read on the subject. Hogfather's focus is belief in general, while Small Gods, as the title suggests, is focused on religion. Hogfather, in my opinion, is probably the better book for the most part (and Christmas-themed, handy for this time of year), and although you might find things a little confusing if you've never read Discworld before, you don't need any previous Pratchett experience to read either. Enjoy.

 

i can be moved from my viewpoints--but only after long and careful deliberation. after all, what's the point of believing in something if every moron who comes along can change your mind? faith isn't about knowing you're right. faith is about choosing a belief, and sticking with it, even in the face of opposition. bear in mind, some people take it too far. if someone ever gives me definitive proof that there is no God, i'm not going to ignore it. but given the fact that it's just as hard to disprove His existance as it is to prove it, that won't be happening anytime soon.

interesting of you to assume that my parents forced God on me. my father believes in some sort of cross between Buddhism and Taoism (which, if you ever study them, have a great deal in common in Christianity, minus God and Jesus). my mother is a lapsed Catholic who changes her beliefs every few months, to mirror whatever's hip and trendy at the moment. the only time i went to church as a child was when i tricked them into letting me stay the night at a friend's on Saturday so i could go to church in the morning. i was actually one of those rare children that wanted to worship God, and wasn't allowed to. so i've been making up for lost time now that i'm beyond their rules. want to know why i believe in God? because i tried not believing in God, and i was miserable. because i refuse to believe there is not a reason and purpose behind the bullshit that has been my life. because i can, and you can't stop me.

that's kinda the point. why would you expect to get the benefits of something you don't even believe in?

i only feel justified because i live a good life. i give to the poor, honor my mother and father, and try not to get jealous of other people's lives and belongings. i don't murder, steal, cheat, lie, or commit adultury. true, i'm not very humble, but nobody's perfect. tell me, what shouldn't i feel justified in?

because you are so obviously accepting of others beliefs, right?

 

I'm sorry, may be some of my arguments would make more sense if I explained that i am highly socialistic in my beliefs and i believe that if something doesn't do good for someone other than yourself than it probably isnt worth spending a lot of time on.

for example, instead of going to church for 2 hours every week, what if the average american went to a soup kitchen, or dedicated some time counseling drug addicted teengers? Thats my standpoint on the value of worship. You should worship with action, not with muttered ramblings with your head bowed.

 

Let me clarify for you Sleek. If I had a thought about that comment for a second I never would have written it. The only way I can see of proving the lack of heaven would be to soehow revive a person after they died. I'm talking truly dead here. I know someone said something about our brains dreaming after we die. Well, I mean beyond that state. So their head could be free of delusions. Then revive them and ask them what happened. It would be hard, as none of us knows what death is like, and everyone would still find a way of believing if there were no heaven. Just the way I'd still be disbelieving, thinking it were a delusion, if there were a heaven.

 

First of all, a little bit about the original topic:
Here in Belgium, and in The Netherlands and maybe a part of Germany too(not sure about Germany), we have St. Nicholaas and, thanks too you nice Americans, Santa Clause.... So basically, we still celabrate the holy man who came from Spain, and who traditionaly gives us oranges and, wel, speculaas. It's a kind of biscuit. And then we have the "Kerstman", santa claus, who was introduced by marketing campaigns. I'm not saying i don't like that, because in a period of a month I get loads and loads of presents . But i prefer to celebrate St.Nicholaas, and the 25th december i celebrate the original holiday, not the Christian one. (no, i'm not an atheist, i'm a... what do you call it, less strict than an atheist, but still not religious... Ah who cares, it's to early)

There was going to come a story about Christianity and Atheism, but i'm to tired atm

 

I must say I am a Christian, and I agree with Rosenshyne.
Ah, Small Gods... gotta love that book.

Excuse me, but there are many people who help the needy inspired by their religion. I agree that there are those who say they are Christians, for example, but don't give a damn about anyone else; but that isn't always so. In my own school, for example (it's a Catholic school) there is a group of people who help others who need it in poor zones of the city, and it's inspired on Jesus' actions. And there are more examples, of more religions.

 

Being inspired by the fear of eternal flame isnt quite as sincere as genuine concern for your fellow man. Thats why I have trouble with evangelicals, born agains, etc. I'm not accusing anyone, but i was in DC the other night and there was a homeless man wrapped in a blanket sitting on top of a sub way great letting the steam fume over him (and it was coming out with ridiculous speed mind you) and no one was even acknowledging this poor man's existence. The thing that fills me with sorrow is not his plight, be it alcoholism/drug addiction/or mental illness, but the moral retardation of a society that passes the man over. Please realize that this is Washington DC, and the man was 3 blocks away from the washington monument, and this is the Christmas season... and its all just salt in the wound in my opinion. In a country so powerful that there should be no mercy left in the people inhabiting the capitol is a sad sad thing.

 

I wasn't referring to people who act out of fear of hell. I meant people who are inspired by the way Jesus helped others, and by some things he said, like, "Love thy neighbour as much as thyself."
But I agree with what you said. Though, you should see what happens in not-so-powerful countries...

 

the true spirit of Christianity is leading a life to emulate Jesus, because a he was the one man born pure and true, with no badness in his soul. we try to be like him not because we want to go to heaven, and not because we want to avoid hell, but because it's the right thing to do.

and tell me, what did you do for the homeless man?

 

I gave him 30 dollars... please, dont try to make me sound hypocritical.

 

You know, I'm actually on Sleek's side of the argument here. I agree with most (but not all) of the points he's made so far. All the time I went to church when I was younger, hardly anyone donated. My dad always did though, about $10-$20 per week. The fact that most people just passed the basket along got to me eventually though. It was one of the many, many factors that eventually turned me off organised religion.

I'm also a great believer in the philosophy of it's not which religion you follow that matters, but how you live your life - the one bit of faith that I do have is that even if you do have the wrong idea on religion, if you live a good life (or believe what you're doing is good) then if there is some sort of ultimate being, they'll recognise that. I believe this, because otherwise I'm pretty fucked for the afterlife (assuming it exists in some Heaven vs Hell fashion). I suppose it could be argued that being motivated by fear is not good, but hey, that's what the Roman Catholic church is all about - do what we say, or burn forever (incidentally I was raised as an R.C.).

Which is also why I get pissed off at all the pro-refugee people here - we have enough problems with our own homeless people and whatnot, why the fuck should we be A) adding to them, and B) giving them preferential treatment over our own citizens? Sorry to bring this into the thread, but I couldn't resist.

 

I think this is a very intresting thread, i loved reading it. I have tons and tons of things to add, but why bother? I mean, we all gave our points of view, be it the christian one, the bhoedist,atheist or wicca. I don't want to be Mr Negative, but I'm discussing this topic for years and years with religious friends (we all love to talk about it, nobody is forcing anyone), and we can now agree on one thing: We all have our beliefes (believes, whatever), and voila, that should be enough. If I want to think god is a rock on Mars, I should be allowed to believe it, as long as I don't bother anyone else with it. That's what's being religious/non-religious is all about: PERSONAL BELIEF. I can't say why I'm an agnostic, I just am. Every religion has some good and bad things, some maybe more than others.
To sum it up: believe what you want, don't bother people who believe differently(and to all the future suicide bombers, "bothering" includes exploding things). There, my 0.2$. Feel free to start an argument, I love these things

 

I'm just glad there's been so little flaming. Keep it up, guys. It makes the debate better when you don't flame. So far it seems like the atheists/agnostics are pounding the crap out of the reiligious guys.

 

Pah. In your opinion. Just because of that I'm going to join in. On which side you ask? The religious, of course.

 

we can't be beaten. we're too self-righteous.